@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
Regarding the ethos, compare how Mastodon behaved when it was a newcomer with very few users vs how it behaves now. When it got started, the federation protocol was OStatus, which was massively underspecified (even worse than ActivityPub), so the only way to join the network was to do what the others were doing, especially the dominant (= most used) implementation at the time, Status.Net (GNU Social).
2/n
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
And Mastodon absolutely DID care about interop with Status.Net *at the time*. Then it grew in numbers, opted to switch to ActivityPub and gave Status.Net compatibility a big middle finder, because now *IT* was the dominant implementation in the Fediverse space, and decided it didn't need to worry about OStatus compatibility anymore, as it wouldn't lose users to it.
3/n
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
And Mastodon absolutely DID care about interop with Status.Net *at the time*. Then it grew in numbers, opted to switch to ActivityPub and gave Status.Net compatibility a big middle finder, because now *IT* was the dominant implementation in the Fediverse space, and decided it didn't need to worry about OStatus compatibility anymore, as it wouldn't lose users to it.
3/n
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
And they *still* don't care about interop with other Fediverse platforms that DO use ActivityPub. For example, Mastodon properly handles Note objects. The official excuse is that Mastodon is a microblogging platform, but it's a piss-poor excuse, since it CAN handle the EXACT SAME CONTENT if it's presented as a Note rather than an Image or Article.
4/n
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
And they *still* don't care about interop with other Fediverse platforms that DO use ActivityPub. For example, Mastodon properly handles Note objects. The official excuse is that Mastodon is a microblogging platform, but it's a piss-poor excuse, since it CAN handle the EXACT SAME CONTENT if it's presented as a Note rather than an Image or Article.
4/n
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
Supporting other types would be TRIVIAL (look at the mediaType rather than the object type to see if you can handle it), but the devs don't care, so the OTHER platforms had to bend over backwards and present Image and Article objects as if they were Notes (a violation of the standard) to make content visible to Mastodon users, even if a trivial change in Mastodon could have handled this.
5/n
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
Supporting other types would be TRIVIAL (look at the mediaType rather than the object type to see if you can handle it), but the devs don't care, so the OTHER platforms had to bend over backwards and present Image and Article objects as if they were Notes (a violation of the standard) to make content visible to Mastodon users, even if a trivial change in Mastodon could have handled this.
5/n
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
But it's even worse actually: now that WordPress is joining the Fediverse, and that's 600M potential users dwarfing the Mastodon numbers, NOW Mastodon devs suddenly start thinking «hm mayb we should support incoming Article objects». Why only Article and why only now? Because of power dynamics.
6/n
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
But it's even worse actually: now that WordPress is joining the Fediverse, and that's 600M potential users dwarfing the Mastodon numbers, NOW Mastodon devs suddenly start thinking «hm mayb we should support incoming Article objects». Why only Article and why only now? Because of power dynamics.
6/n
@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
because it's 600M potential users!
who wouldn't
you have the weirdest position: old shit has to be supported
no it doesn't. you throw old shit out
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
But it's even worse actually: now that WordPress is joining the Fediverse, and that's 600M potential users dwarfing the Mastodon numbers, NOW Mastodon devs suddenly start thinking «hm mayb we should support incoming Article objects». Why only Article and why only now? Because of power dynamics.
6/n
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
The fact that Mastodon only cares about interop when it's the underdog shows the shitty ethos of its leadership and developers.
It is about about power AND it is about numbers AND —ESPECIALLY for Mastodon— it is about MONEY. Because if people move to other platforms Mastodon loses users, loses control, and its PAID developers lose their income stream from donations.
7/n
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
The fact that Mastodon only cares about interop when it's the underdog shows the shitty ethos of its leadership and developers.
It is about about power AND it is about numbers AND —ESPECIALLY for Mastodon— it is about MONEY. Because if people move to other platforms Mastodon loses users, loses control, and its PAID developers lose their income stream from donations.
7/n
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
So you see minor Fediverse platforms working on improving interoperability, improving data and profile portability, giving users control to freely move between servers and platforms, and Mastodon NOT GIVING A SHIT and you still go to all these lengths to defend it, well, it says more about you than anything else.
8/8
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
So you see minor Fediverse platforms working on improving interoperability, improving data and profile portability, giving users control to freely move between servers and platforms, and Mastodon NOT GIVING A SHIT and you still go to all these lengths to defend it, well, it says more about you than anything else.
8/8
@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
so i can't migrate my account to gotosocial?
oh wait i can
what the fuck are you on about
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@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
so i can't migrate my account to gotosocial?
oh wait i can
what the fuck are you on about
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
If you think the possibility to migrate accounts is what I'm talking about, you have no idea what I'm talking about.
https://joinfediverse.wiki/Nomadic_identity
https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/nomadic-identity-for-the-fediverse/2101
https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/fep-ef61-portable-objects/3738
(etc)
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@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
because it's 600M potential users!
who wouldn't
you have the weirdest position: old shit has to be supported
no it doesn't. you throw old shit out
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
You sound like a Google developer.
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@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i just don't understand the inability to understand: nobody cares
we do whatever the fuck we want. we answer to no one
and yet you act like there is some sort of structure, obligations, checks and balances
nonsense
this is anarchy. this is open source. no one owes you anything
no company. no salary. no hierachy. just people doing *whatever the fuck they want*
all of your complaints mean nothing
nobody cares
that's exactly the problem. users should be aware of the risks, and care about them, checking the developer's power over them.we do whatever the fuck we want. we answer to no one
that's exactly the unchecked power I'm speaking of.and yet you act like there is some sort of structure, obligations, checks and balances
with great power, comes great responsibility
if you extend your implementation recklessly, you undermine the very network you depend on to exist.
it kills the goose that lays golden eggs.
but if the developers don't see that, users who care about the network could and should help them see it.this is anarchy. this is open source. no one owes you anything
this is true
that's why my argument is based on alignment of self interests
users want a working, interoperable network
mastodon wants users for influence and funding
mastodon has power over users because code is law, and most users don't control their servers
users check that power by making it clear that they care about the diverse network with interop
nobody owes you anything, but if they want something from you collectively, you collectively have some leverage
don't waste it, but use it intelligently, is what I'm asking, so that we have a healthier network even if mastodon developers don't care about the goose's health
this is community power dynamics with intelligent checks and balances in collective pursuit of self interests
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
If you think the possibility to migrate accounts is what I'm talking about, you have no idea what I'm talking about.
https://joinfediverse.wiki/Nomadic_identity
https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/nomadic-identity-for-the-fediverse/2101
https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/fep-ef61-portable-objects/3738
(etc)
@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i don't care
no one fucking cares
people build things, and they work or not, and they are adapted or not
there's no obligations here. there's no heirarchy here. no one owes you, or me, or anyone else anything
welcome to open source. it's anarchy
and you act like you're in a board room meeting
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@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i don't care
no one fucking cares
people build things, and they work or not, and they are adapted or not
there's no obligations here. there's no heirarchy here. no one owes you, or me, or anyone else anything
welcome to open source. it's anarchy
and you act like you're in a board room meeting
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
anarchy has an ethos, and you are violating that ethos. That's not anarchy, that's the right-wing libertarian “might makes right” attitude that is driving us to fascism in real world politics. And you're supporting that here. Congratulations.
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
You sound like a Google developer.
@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
oh yeah
as i explain to you open source, and you push back as if it's a hierarchy with obligations, that means *i* am the corporate goon here
that makes perfect sense
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@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
oh yeah
as i explain to you open source, and you push back as if it's a hierarchy with obligations, that means *i* am the corporate goon here
that makes perfect sense
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
“Google Chrome is open source”
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nobody cares
that's exactly the problem. users should be aware of the risks, and care about them, checking the developer's power over them.we do whatever the fuck we want. we answer to no one
that's exactly the unchecked power I'm speaking of.and yet you act like there is some sort of structure, obligations, checks and balances
with great power, comes great responsibility
if you extend your implementation recklessly, you undermine the very network you depend on to exist.
it kills the goose that lays golden eggs.
but if the developers don't see that, users who care about the network could and should help them see it.this is anarchy. this is open source. no one owes you anything
this is true
that's why my argument is based on alignment of self interests
users want a working, interoperable network
mastodon wants users for influence and funding
mastodon has power over users because code is law, and most users don't control their servers
users check that power by making it clear that they care about the diverse network with interop
nobody owes you anything, but if they want something from you collectively, you collectively have some leverage
don't waste it, but use it intelligently, is what I'm asking, so that we have a healthier network even if mastodon developers don't care about the goose's health
this is community power dynamics with intelligent checks and balances in collective pursuit of self interests
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
there's no power!
open source
anarchy
people build whatever
people use whatever
whatever happens, happens
no chain of command, no network of obligations
and you continue to insist you have a position to stand on that says "somebody owes me"
they don't owe you shit. no one owes me shit. no one owes anyone shit
no one can tell you what to do. no one can tell me what to do
please understand where you are
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undefined oblomov@sociale.network shared this topic
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
“Google Chrome is open source”
@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
ok i want you to imagine that i'm not ben royce. i'm elon musk in a rubber mask
whatever you need to tell yourself because i present to you the horrible idea that causes pain in your mind that there are no system of obligations in open source
whatever you need to tell yourself about my malicious demonic intentions
it's a farce
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@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
ok i want you to imagine that i'm not ben royce. i'm elon musk in a rubber mask
whatever you need to tell yourself because i present to you the horrible idea that causes pain in your mind that there are no system of obligations in open source
whatever you need to tell yourself about my malicious demonic intentions
it's a farce
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
I don't give a rat's ass about who you are. I'm just pointing out what your argument implies. If you don't like it, that's your problem, not mine.
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
I don't give a rat's ass about who you are. I'm just pointing out what your argument implies. If you don't like it, that's your problem, not mine.
@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
right
i understand
when i try to explaint o your there are no obligations in open source that obviously means i am a corporate goon
you got it! 👍
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@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
right
i understand
when i try to explaint o your there are no obligations in open source that obviously means i am a corporate goon
you got it! 👍
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
again, if you don't like the ethical implication of your position, that's your problem, not mine.
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