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  4. So the good thing about Linux distros switching to Wayland long before Wayland is remotely ready is that contact with real-world users will make the "pain points" visible so they can be fixed.

So the good thing about Linux distros switching to Wayland long before Wayland is remotely ready is that contact with real-world users will make the "pain points" visible so they can be fixed.

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  • mccundefined This user is from outside of this forum
    mccundefined This user is from outside of this forum
    mcc
    wrote last edited by
    #1

    So the good thing about Linux distros switching to Wayland long before Wayland is remotely ready is that contact with real-world users will make the "pain points" visible so they can be fixed. But the bad thing is. I do not actually believe the "pain points" will be fixed. Ever

    Joeundefined Alex P. 👹undefined Graham Sutherland / Polynomialundefined Sashinundefined aevaundefined 5 Replies Last reply
    2
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    • mccundefined mcc

      So the good thing about Linux distros switching to Wayland long before Wayland is remotely ready is that contact with real-world users will make the "pain points" visible so they can be fixed. But the bad thing is. I do not actually believe the "pain points" will be fixed. Ever

      Joeundefined This user is from outside of this forum
      Joeundefined This user is from outside of this forum
      Joe
      wrote last edited by
      #2

      @mcc X windows had so many pain points that were never fixed, so ...

      fluffy 💜undefined 1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • mccundefined mcc

        So the good thing about Linux distros switching to Wayland long before Wayland is remotely ready is that contact with real-world users will make the "pain points" visible so they can be fixed. But the bad thing is. I do not actually believe the "pain points" will be fixed. Ever

        Alex P. 👹undefined This user is from outside of this forum
        Alex P. 👹undefined This user is from outside of this forum
        Alex P. 👹
        wrote last edited by
        #3

        @mcc
        one time gnome just stopped respecting the concept of having more than one XScreen (the second digit in "DISPLAY=:0.0"), and i wrote red hat to ask them about it (i worked for a company that had a support contract, at the time), and they wrote back "we forgot what that did so we just nuked it entirely, nobody who runs linux uses a random collection of heterogeneous displays anymore, right?"

        i feel like i've seen this interaction play out many times in my life now

        1 Reply Last reply
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        • mccundefined mcc

          So the good thing about Linux distros switching to Wayland long before Wayland is remotely ready is that contact with real-world users will make the "pain points" visible so they can be fixed. But the bad thing is. I do not actually believe the "pain points" will be fixed. Ever

          Graham Sutherland / Polynomialundefined This user is from outside of this forum
          Graham Sutherland / Polynomialundefined This user is from outside of this forum
          Graham Sutherland / Polynomial
          wrote last edited by
          #4

          @mcc I am a strong believer that this happens because peak Linux culture is where you gaslight yourself into believing it's all holy and perfect and then never report all the broken shit

          aevaundefined 1 Reply Last reply
          0
          • mccundefined mcc

            So the good thing about Linux distros switching to Wayland long before Wayland is remotely ready is that contact with real-world users will make the "pain points" visible so they can be fixed. But the bad thing is. I do not actually believe the "pain points" will be fixed. Ever

            Sashinundefined This user is from outside of this forum
            Sashinundefined This user is from outside of this forum
            Sashin
            wrote last edited by
            #5

            @mcc what are some of the pain points?

            aevaundefined 1 Reply Last reply
            0
            • Joeundefined Joe

              @mcc X windows had so many pain points that were never fixed, so ...

              fluffy 💜undefined This user is from outside of this forum
              fluffy 💜undefined This user is from outside of this forum
              fluffy 💜
              wrote last edited by
              #6

              @not2b @mcc They weren't really fixable, either, like at a protocol level, and all of the extensions and workarounds that modern X software was using ended up fully degrading the X11 experience to the extent that there wasn't even any advantage to trying to work with it anymore.

              But there were also 10 major versions of X that came before X11, and X itself was a successor to W, so one would hope that X would have learned its lessons by then, too.

              Joeundefined 1 Reply Last reply
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              • aevaundefined aeva shared this topic
              • mccundefined mcc

                So the good thing about Linux distros switching to Wayland long before Wayland is remotely ready is that contact with real-world users will make the "pain points" visible so they can be fixed. But the bad thing is. I do not actually believe the "pain points" will be fixed. Ever

                aevaundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                aevaundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                aeva
                wrote last edited by
                #7

                @mcc one thing i noticed while trying to find a solution to my most recent injury is there's been bugs open for it for *years*

                gkrnoursundefined 1 Reply Last reply
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                • Graham Sutherland / Polynomialundefined Graham Sutherland / Polynomial

                  @mcc I am a strong believer that this happens because peak Linux culture is where you gaslight yourself into believing it's all holy and perfect and then never report all the broken shit

                  aevaundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                  aevaundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                  aeva
                  wrote last edited by
                  #8

                  @gsuberland @mcc they get reported, they just get fixed at a glacial pace, if they gets fixed at all.

                  Graham Sutherland / Polynomialundefined Matthew Millerundefined 2 Replies Last reply
                  0
                  • aevaundefined aeva

                    @gsuberland @mcc they get reported, they just get fixed at a glacial pace, if they gets fixed at all.

                    Graham Sutherland / Polynomialundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                    Graham Sutherland / Polynomialundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                    Graham Sutherland / Polynomial
                    wrote last edited by
                    #9

                    @aeva @mcc I'm not even sure that this is true at scale

                    Graham Sutherland / Polynomialundefined aevaundefined 2 Replies Last reply
                    0
                    • Sashinundefined Sashin

                      @mcc what are some of the pain points?

                      aevaundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                      aevaundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                      aeva
                      wrote last edited by
                      #10

                      @sashin @mcc search my username and the string "wayland" and you will find plenty

                      aevaundefined 1 Reply Last reply
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                      • aevaundefined aeva

                        @sashin @mcc search my username and the string "wayland" and you will find plenty

                        aevaundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                        aevaundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                        aeva
                        wrote last edited by
                        #11

                        @sashin @mcc and also a lot of swearing

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • Graham Sutherland / Polynomialundefined Graham Sutherland / Polynomial

                          @aeva @mcc I'm not even sure that this is true at scale

                          Graham Sutherland / Polynomialundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                          Graham Sutherland / Polynomialundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                          Graham Sutherland / Polynomial
                          wrote last edited by
                          #12

                          @aeva @mcc so for example KiCAD used to have a metric shitload of bugs and annoyances and crashes, it was genuinely not good. and then a few of the devs decided to get together and run these community feedback things where they asked "what's the most annoying bug?" and such by email campaigns. and then devs took that feedback and turned them into bug tickets and fixed them. the bandwidth was always there, just people were putting up with the problems and never getting around to reporting them.

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                          • Graham Sutherland / Polynomialundefined Graham Sutherland / Polynomial

                            @aeva @mcc I'm not even sure that this is true at scale

                            aevaundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                            aevaundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                            aeva
                            wrote last edited by
                            #13

                            @gsuberland @mcc the majority of my grievances with wayland have had bugs open for years and people pleading for them to be fixed

                            Graham Sutherland / Polynomialundefined aevaundefined 2 Replies Last reply
                            0
                            • aevaundefined aeva

                              @gsuberland @mcc the majority of my grievances with wayland have had bugs open for years and people pleading for them to be fixed

                              Graham Sutherland / Polynomialundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                              Graham Sutherland / Polynomialundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                              Graham Sutherland / Polynomial
                              wrote last edited by
                              #14

                              @aeva @mcc yeah I mean there are probably a bunch of things in Wayland that are missing and problematic for sure, based on my outsider view of it, my point is that there's also this endemic problem that leads to apathy across the board

                              aevaundefined 1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • aevaundefined aeva

                                @gsuberland @mcc the majority of my grievances with wayland have had bugs open for years and people pleading for them to be fixed

                                aevaundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                                aevaundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                                aeva
                                wrote last edited by
                                #15

                                @gsuberland @mcc and "actually the Philosophers created a protocol for this (which nothing implements), therefore this is not a problem" is a very common reply by wayland apologists when people complain about wayland problems

                                Graham Sutherland / Polynomialundefined 1 Reply Last reply
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                                • aevaundefined aeva

                                  @gsuberland @mcc and "actually the Philosophers created a protocol for this (which nothing implements), therefore this is not a problem" is a very common reply by wayland apologists when people complain about wayland problems

                                  Graham Sutherland / Polynomialundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                                  Graham Sutherland / Polynomialundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                                  Graham Sutherland / Polynomial
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #16

                                  @aeva @mcc on this side of it have no opinion because I don't use Linux at all (just FreeBSD and Windows in my world)

                                  aevaundefined 1 Reply Last reply
                                  0
                                  • Graham Sutherland / Polynomialundefined Graham Sutherland / Polynomial

                                    @aeva @mcc yeah I mean there are probably a bunch of things in Wayland that are missing and problematic for sure, based on my outsider view of it, my point is that there's also this endemic problem that leads to apathy across the board

                                    aevaundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                                    aevaundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                                    aeva
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #17

                                    @gsuberland @mcc maybe there's apathy but it's not for a lack of awareness on the part of the maintainers

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • Graham Sutherland / Polynomialundefined Graham Sutherland / Polynomial

                                      @aeva @mcc on this side of it have no opinion because I don't use Linux at all (just FreeBSD and Windows in my world)

                                      aevaundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                                      aevaundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                                      aeva
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #18

                                      @gsuberland if you don't have an opinion don't express one

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      0
                                      • fluffy 💜undefined fluffy 💜

                                        @not2b @mcc They weren't really fixable, either, like at a protocol level, and all of the extensions and workarounds that modern X software was using ended up fully degrading the X11 experience to the extent that there wasn't even any advantage to trying to work with it anymore.

                                        But there were also 10 major versions of X that came before X11, and X itself was a successor to W, so one would hope that X would have learned its lessons by then, too.

                                        Joeundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                                        Joeundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                                        Joe
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #19

                                        @fluffy @mcc Yes, X evolved into a hopeless buggy and insecure piece of crap that no number of extensions could fix and Wayland was the way forward. But it is common to find that the second system that is supposed to solve everything has its own issues.

                                        mccundefined 1 Reply Last reply
                                        0
                                        • Joeundefined Joe

                                          @fluffy @mcc Yes, X evolved into a hopeless buggy and insecure piece of crap that no number of extensions could fix and Wayland was the way forward. But it is common to find that the second system that is supposed to solve everything has its own issues.

                                          mccundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                                          mccundefined This user is from outside of this forum
                                          mcc
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #20

                                          @not2b @fluffy however wayland development is also largely driven by extensions

                                          fluffy 💜undefined 1 Reply Last reply
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                                          So the good thing about Linux distros switching to Wayland long before Wayland is remotely ready is that contact with real-world users will make the "pain points" visible so they can be fixed.

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