As a community, we often ask ourselves how to attract more users to #XMPP.
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As a community, we often ask ourselves how to attract more users to #XMPP. Yet the real tragedy is that people would rather build something entirely new (loosely based on email or #ActivityPub) than consider XMPP. Need end-to-end encryption by default? If compatibility with existing XMPP clients is a secondary concern, you can implement it in your own solution while still benefiting from our two decades of experience in instant messaging.
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As a community, we often ask ourselves how to attract more users to #XMPP. Yet the real tragedy is that people would rather build something entirely new (loosely based on email or #ActivityPub) than consider XMPP. Need end-to-end encryption by default? If compatibility with existing XMPP clients is a secondary concern, you can implement it in your own solution while still benefiting from our two decades of experience in instant messaging.
@daniel
I'm guessing there are complex problems in IM space that they don't realize they'll have to solve from scratch, which XMPP already solved for them.What are these problems?
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As a community, we often ask ourselves how to attract more users to #XMPP. Yet the real tragedy is that people would rather build something entirely new (loosely based on email or #ActivityPub) than consider XMPP. Need end-to-end encryption by default? If compatibility with existing XMPP clients is a secondary concern, you can implement it in your own solution while still benefiting from our two decades of experience in instant messaging.
@daniel I think people have never truly forgiven XMPP for being an XML based protocol.
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As a community, we often ask ourselves how to attract more users to #XMPP. Yet the real tragedy is that people would rather build something entirely new (loosely based on email or #ActivityPub) than consider XMPP. Need end-to-end encryption by default? If compatibility with existing XMPP clients is a secondary concern, you can implement it in your own solution while still benefiting from our two decades of experience in instant messaging.
I consider this a failure on our part but I don’t really know what to do about it. Most arguments against #XMPP don’t hold if you’re building from scratch anyway:
• #Conversations_im looks very outdated: OK, but you are developing your own clients anyway.
• XMPP doesn’t have an SDK: Neither does your #ActivityPub or email stack
• OMEMO is insecure and I would prefer #MLS: Yes, let’s work on that together and you’ll still benefit from XMPP’s 100+ solved IM problems.
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@daniel I think people have never truly forgiven XMPP for being an XML based protocol.
@mariusor @daniel what would've been a better alternative?
https://www.process-one.net/blog/stop-telling-us-xmpp-should-use-json/
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@daniel
I'm guessing there are complex problems in IM space that they don't realize they'll have to solve from scratch, which XMPP already solved for them.What are these problems?
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@mariusor @daniel what would've been a better alternative?
https://www.process-one.net/blog/stop-telling-us-xmpp-should-use-json/
@joshix based on what's popular today: JSON.
(I'm joking, my assumption is that they chose what was the best alternative at the time. As far as I know JSON hadn't been described by Crockford at Jabber's inception)
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I consider this a failure on our part but I don’t really know what to do about it. Most arguments against #XMPP don’t hold if you’re building from scratch anyway:
• #Conversations_im looks very outdated: OK, but you are developing your own clients anyway.
• XMPP doesn’t have an SDK: Neither does your #ActivityPub or email stack
• OMEMO is insecure and I would prefer #MLS: Yes, let’s work on that together and you’ll still benefit from XMPP’s 100+ solved IM problems.
@daniel The big plus of #DeltaChat is that the infrastructure is already there. Infrastructure is a big part of the problem. And obviously using mail for that is only for people born before 2000.
Second is branding: When people hear #XMPP they hear 20 years of failure of implementing robust solutions both server-side and client-side. People just don't know that after 20 years there now are server and client solutions really working.
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@daniel The big plus of #DeltaChat is that the infrastructure is already there. Infrastructure is a big part of the problem. And obviously using mail for that is only for people born before 2000.
Second is branding: When people hear #XMPP they hear 20 years of failure of implementing robust solutions both server-side and client-side. People just don't know that after 20 years there now are server and client solutions really working.
@lazarus @daniel #XMPP is still a thriving ecosystem with lots of good FOSS developers doing interesting things.
XMPP is also used under the hood in tons of products needing instant messaging even if they are not advertised as XMPP clients, or do not federate. But look at #Matrix, only 25% of matrix servers federate.
Anyway, all three share a strong focus on protocols, but there is a big difference: https://chatmail.at does not expose protocols to client developers, just a Rust SDK.
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As a community, we often ask ourselves how to attract more users to #XMPP. Yet the real tragedy is that people would rather build something entirely new (loosely based on email or #ActivityPub) than consider XMPP. Need end-to-end encryption by default? If compatibility with existing XMPP clients is a secondary concern, you can implement it in your own solution while still benefiting from our two decades of experience in instant messaging.
@daniel@gultsch.social The Lemmy developers have added a user profile field where you can enter a Matrix account. It would certainly be better to also add a link to XMPP, and I believe this would be the most viable way to immediately achieve secure communication in the Fediverse.
However, it's always helpful for someone to try to "reinvent the wheel": diversity is a very prolific mother of solutions to problems that don't yet exist.
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@lazarus @daniel #XMPP is still a thriving ecosystem with lots of good FOSS developers doing interesting things.
XMPP is also used under the hood in tons of products needing instant messaging even if they are not advertised as XMPP clients, or do not federate. But look at #Matrix, only 25% of matrix servers federate.
Anyway, all three share a strong focus on protocols, but there is a big difference: https://chatmail.at does not expose protocols to client developers, just a Rust SDK.
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This post is deleted!
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As a community, we often ask ourselves how to attract more users to #XMPP. Yet the real tragedy is that people would rather build something entirely new (loosely based on email or #ActivityPub) than consider XMPP. Need end-to-end encryption by default? If compatibility with existing XMPP clients is a secondary concern, you can implement it in your own solution while still benefiting from our two decades of experience in instant messaging.
@daniel Someone have to solve https://soatok.blog/2024/08/04/against-xmppomemo/ issues first
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undefined daniel@gultsch.social shared this topic on
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@daniel Someone have to solve https://soatok.blog/2024/08/04/against-xmppomemo/ issues first
@tris two things: I already said in my follow up post that if someone wants to build their own clients on top of XMPP and prefers MLS over OMEMO, the XMPP community is very open to that. A protocol is much more than just the encryption. They would still benefit from all the other things XMPP has solved.
A lot of what's in that blog post is ill-informed and bordering on disinformation and fear mongering.
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@tris two things: I already said in my follow up post that if someone wants to build their own clients on top of XMPP and prefers MLS over OMEMO, the XMPP community is very open to that. A protocol is much more than just the encryption. They would still benefit from all the other things XMPP has solved.
A lot of what's in that blog post is ill-informed and bordering on disinformation and fear mongering.
@daniel Ah, fair, their work for E2EE Fedi looks interesting: https://github.com/fedi-e2ee/public-key-directory-specification
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@daniel Ah, fair, their work for E2EE Fedi looks interesting: https://github.com/fedi-e2ee/public-key-directory-specification
@tris there are three actively developed protocols for federated instant messaging (XMPP, Matrix, Deltachat). At least one of them is very open to new developers and new ideas and has a structure in place to collaboratively work on those ideas and bring various stake holders together. With no disrespect to that individual I don't see why there needs to be a forth protocol loosely based on ActivityPub.
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@tris there are three actively developed protocols for federated instant messaging (XMPP, Matrix, Deltachat). At least one of them is very open to new developers and new ideas and has a structure in place to collaboratively work on those ideas and bring various stake holders together. With no disrespect to that individual I don't see why there needs to be a forth protocol loosely based on ActivityPub.
@tris Soatak is an expert in cryptography. I’m not. I’m more than happy to stand on the shoulder of giants when it comes to E2EE. That’s why we used the Signal Protocol 10+ years ago for #OMEMO and are now looking towards #MLS. However, good, interoperable protocol design is so much more than just E2EE. And maybe I've learned a thing or two about protocol design in my career that they don’t necessarily know.
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@by_caballero thanks, I’ll have a look!
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@django https://codeberg.org/socialweb.coop/activitypub-testing this could easily be forked as a starting point
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@mleduc @saerdnaer @xwikiorg it was amazing when it was alive! Now there is https://ibis.wiki for federated wiki software currently
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@django They are currently no ActivityPub C2S tests in FediTest. No reason why they could not be added, though, other than the time it takes.
Also, see https://feditest.org/contrib/results/
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@saerdnaer @liaizon at @xwikiorg we did an activitypub extension https://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Extension/ActivityPub%20Application/ for #xwiki, sadly it is not working anymore with other actors of the fediverse and we don't have the bandwidth to revive the extension. But it proved that it was technically possible.
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Random #fosdem notes. Met a nice dev from @ente #ente with whom I discussed a subtle bug on GitHub a few weeks ago (thanks for the now released fix!). Also met @liaizon. Thanks for reaching out; it's always cool to discuss the integration #activitypub in wikis!
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@j12t digging around l see that there are some some tests relating to client/server relationship
This is all I could find though, is there any documentation of which tests are performed? Or does it follow what the original test suite did?
https://github.com/jernst/annost/tree/08ee6fbe1798bd94883c9cbecbd27fc502409a97
