Old English had two words for “knife”: ‘cnīf’ (the ancestor of ‘knife’) and ‘meteseax’.
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... *messex if it had survived, but it didn’t even make it into Middle English. However, it does have living cognates in some of the sister languages of English, including German ‘Messer’ and Dutch ‘mes’.
In this post, you can hear and see how Dutch ‘mes’ and German ‘Messer’ evolved from Proto-Germanic, step by step. I also tell all about the difference between Proto-Germanic *matisahsan with an s and *matizahsan with a z (520 words, tier 1):
https://www.patreon.com/posts/messer-and-mes-936987552/
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Old English ‘cnīf’, the ancestor of ‘knife’, wasn’t attested until the 11th century. It came from Proto-Germanic *knībaz (“(pocket) knife”), perhaps – but not necessarily – via Old Norse ‘knífr’.
Its cognates include West Frisian ‘knyft’, ‘kniif’, obsolete Dutch ‘knijf’, Low Saxon/German ‘knyf’, German ‘Kneif’ (via Low Saxon/German), and archaic German ‘Kneip’. French ‘canif’ was borrowed from West Germanic.
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Old English had two words for “knife”: ‘cnīf’ (the ancestor of ‘knife’) and ‘meteseax’.
‘Meteseax’ was a compound of two words. The first one was ‘mete’ (“food”), the ancestor of ‘meat’, whose meaning was later narrowed.
The other one was ‘seax’, which meant “sword” and is related to ‘Saxon’ and the surname ‘Sax’, on which the word ‘saxophone’ was based.
Zoom in on my new graphic to learn more.
‘Meteseax’ would’ve become ... 1/
@yvanspijk Part of my family tree includes the Sexsmiths.
Imagine my disappointment when I learned the *actual* origins of that surname 😄 -
Old English had two words for “knife”: ‘cnīf’ (the ancestor of ‘knife’) and ‘meteseax’.
‘Meteseax’ was a compound of two words. The first one was ‘mete’ (“food”), the ancestor of ‘meat’, whose meaning was later narrowed.
The other one was ‘seax’, which meant “sword” and is related to ‘Saxon’ and the surname ‘Sax’, on which the word ‘saxophone’ was based.
Zoom in on my new graphic to learn more.
‘Meteseax’ would’ve become ... 1/
So this is where German "Messer" comes from 😲
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@yvanspijk Part of my family tree includes the Sexsmiths.
Imagine my disappointment when I learned the *actual* origins of that surname 😄@MichaelPorter I hope that the fact that Latin 'sexus', which gave us 'sex', is very distantly related to this word family as well.
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Old English ‘cnīf’, the ancestor of ‘knife’, wasn’t attested until the 11th century. It came from Proto-Germanic *knībaz (“(pocket) knife”), perhaps – but not necessarily – via Old Norse ‘knífr’.
Its cognates include West Frisian ‘knyft’, ‘kniif’, obsolete Dutch ‘knijf’, Low Saxon/German ‘knyf’, German ‘Kneif’ (via Low Saxon/German), and archaic German ‘Kneip’. French ‘canif’ was borrowed from West Germanic.
@yvanspijk
I never heard Kneif or Kneip – probably too outdated?
Are these related to “kneifen“ (to pinch), maybe because the pocket knife is foldable?
And “Kneipe” (pub)?
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneipe says Kneipe (Kneipschenke) stems from kneifen, because it was cramped. -
@yvanspijk
I never heard Kneif or Kneip – probably too outdated?
Are these related to “kneifen“ (to pinch), maybe because the pocket knife is foldable?
And “Kneipe” (pub)?
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneipe says Kneipe (Kneipschenke) stems from kneifen, because it was cramped.@fiee That's right!
'Kneif' and 'Kneip' are still listed in Duden, but they're indeed outdated.
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@yvanspijk
I never heard Kneif or Kneip – probably too outdated?
Are these related to “kneifen“ (to pinch), maybe because the pocket knife is foldable?
And “Kneipe” (pub)?
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneipe says Kneipe (Kneipschenke) stems from kneifen, because it was cramped.@fiee @yvanspijk in the moselle franconian dialects, a small potato knife is a "Kneipchen" and of course, there is the "Kneifzange"
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@fiee That's right!
'Kneif' and 'Kneip' are still listed in Duden, but they're indeed outdated.
@yvanspijk Ok, Wahrig says Kneif/Kneip is still used by craftspeople like leatherworkers or gardeners. I seem to remember hearing it for a gardening knife. (Perhaps it was @pjakobs ’s Kneipchen.)
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So this is where German "Messer" comes from 😲
I grew up in a town that received a lot of German immigrants in the 1800s. “Messerschmitt” was a common surname. Apparently’ “Knifemaker” (?)
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Old English had two words for “knife”: ‘cnīf’ (the ancestor of ‘knife’) and ‘meteseax’.
‘Meteseax’ was a compound of two words. The first one was ‘mete’ (“food”), the ancestor of ‘meat’, whose meaning was later narrowed.
The other one was ‘seax’, which meant “sword” and is related to ‘Saxon’ and the surname ‘Sax’, on which the word ‘saxophone’ was based.
Zoom in on my new graphic to learn more.
‘Meteseax’ would’ve become ... 1/
That phrase could regain popularity: “Dude, could ya hand me that meat sword?”
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I grew up in a town that received a lot of German immigrants in the 1800s. “Messerschmitt” was a common surname. Apparently’ “Knifemaker” (?)
@donray @Mab_813 @yvanspijk Yes, knifemaker or literally knife smith.
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Old English ‘cnīf’, the ancestor of ‘knife’, wasn’t attested until the 11th century. It came from Proto-Germanic *knībaz (“(pocket) knife”), perhaps – but not necessarily – via Old Norse ‘knífr’.
Its cognates include West Frisian ‘knyft’, ‘kniif’, obsolete Dutch ‘knijf’, Low Saxon/German ‘knyf’, German ‘Kneif’ (via Low Saxon/German), and archaic German ‘Kneip’. French ‘canif’ was borrowed from West Germanic.
@yvanspijk And probably Catalan "ganivet".
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I grew up in a town that received a lot of German immigrants in the 1800s. “Messerschmitt” was a common surname. Apparently’ “Knifemaker” (?)
Oh was confused at first but you are right, "Schmied" is the modern German equivalent for "smith" so I guess "schmitt" means the same.
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@fiee That's right!
'Kneif' and 'Kneip' are still listed in Duden, but they're indeed outdated.
@yvanspijk @fiee
They are used in local dialect words for "that one sharp kitchen knife". It has a different word in many dialects, but often a version of "kneip" is included.
Where I come from, it's "kniepchen"
This article is german, but has a map: https://www.zeit.de/zeit-magazin/2015/31/deutschlandkarte-kuechenmesser-dialekt -
@yvanspijk @fiee
They are used in local dialect words for "that one sharp kitchen knife". It has a different word in many dialects, but often a version of "kneip" is included.
Where I come from, it's "kniepchen"
This article is german, but has a map: https://www.zeit.de/zeit-magazin/2015/31/deutschlandkarte-kuechenmesser-dialekt@rainyday
Interesting. I’d guess some of these words stem from a manufacturer, e.g. “Schiller”, ”Abraham” and several “Teufel” derivates. -
@yvanspijk @fiee
They are used in local dialect words for "that one sharp kitchen knife". It has a different word in many dialects, but often a version of "kneip" is included.
Where I come from, it's "kniepchen"
This article is german, but has a map: https://www.zeit.de/zeit-magazin/2015/31/deutschlandkarte-kuechenmesser-dialekt -
Oh was confused at first but you are right, "Schmied" is the modern German equivalent for "smith" so I guess "schmitt" means the same.
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@rainyday
Interesting. I’d guess some of these words stem from a manufacturer, e.g. “Schiller”, ”Abraham” and several “Teufel” derivates.@fiee @yvanspijk
Teufel is devil. Because it is "the one sharp as hell kitchen knife", areas around franconia call it the cutting devil 😅
Abraham is a religious connotation, because if you cut yourself with it, you'll see him soon-ish.
Schiller I'm not sure, that is NL-inspired.
This kind of knife is much older than brand manufacturers, the names mostly come from faerie and other tall tales. Or describe what it does, in old and older words. -
@fiee @yvanspijk
Teufel is devil. Because it is "the one sharp as hell kitchen knife", areas around franconia call it the cutting devil 😅
Abraham is a religious connotation, because if you cut yourself with it, you'll see him soon-ish.
Schiller I'm not sure, that is NL-inspired.
This kind of knife is much older than brand manufacturers, the names mostly come from faerie and other tall tales. Or describe what it does, in old and older words.@rainyday
Possible. But I’d guess(!) at least some of the words aren’t older than houseware peddlers who might have sold knifes marked by their manufacturers.
E.g. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinel from 1890.Hier gibt’s Teufels Messer aus einem Familienbetrieb aus Franken, auch wenn die nicht ganz so alt sind:
https://www.kurier.de/inhalt.hollfeld-teuflisch-scharf-industriemesser-spezialist-imabt-erfindet-innovatives-messer.067eba34-1f76-44c9-b0c3-61a5d551194d.html -
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Old English ‘cnīf’, the ancestor of ‘knife’, wasn’t attested until the 11th century. It came from Proto-Germanic *knībaz (“(pocket) knife”), perhaps – but not necessarily – via Old Norse ‘knífr’.
Its cognates include West Frisian ‘knyft’, ‘kniif’, obsolete Dutch ‘knijf’, Low Saxon/German ‘knyf’, German ‘Kneif’ (via Low Saxon/German), and archaic German ‘Kneip’. French ‘canif’ was borrowed from West Germanic.
@yvanspijk in Pajottegem (provincie Vlaams-Brabant in België) is er een drukkerij die 'De Knijf' heet. Ik weet niet of het woord daar in het lokaal dialect gebruikt wordt, maar het zou me niet verwonderen.
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