Does the open web require competitive markets?
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Just look at how everything is monopolized, for one
@burnoutqueen that's not competitive, then
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Does the open web require competitive markets?
@evan I'm no. Human societies have worked fine without competitive markets before and I don't see why a society with an open web would require it.
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@evan I'm no. Human societies have worked fine without competitive markets before and I don't see why a society with an open web would require it.
@malte so, you prefer what we have now? Monopolies with rent-seeking enshittification?
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Does the open web require competitive markets?
@evan no, not at all. But, people need money to live, do things, make things happen. Not much but some. This is the dilemma of the hippies, punks, ravers, any alt culture. Alt tech is the same.
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@evan no, not at all. But, people need money to live, do things, make things happen. Not much but some. This is the dilemma of the hippies, punks, ravers, any alt culture. Alt tech is the same.
@DrPen i think it's interesting how much people are focusing on the "markets" part of this question, rather than the "competitive" part.
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Does the open web require competitive markets?
@evan I most certainly don't have any answers, but it's a super interesting discussion. Somewhere in there lies the question of interoperability (if I'm using it correctly). I we could all connect and "talk to" FB users using other tools/services then users would have choice (competition would exist). We could have groups for our local community and invite to birthdays without being "slaves" to FB. And if we didn't like the algo, we'd use a tool/service with a different algo (or no algo).
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@DrPen i think it's interesting how much people are focusing on the "markets" part of this question, rather than the "competitive" part.
@evan well, its not a trick question. Where's there's money, there's competition.
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@evan well, its not a trick question. Where's there's money, there's competition.
@DrPen that's not true at all! Many of the Web's most important services are run as oligopolies or monopolies.
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Does the open web require competitive markets?
@evan the open web is in some ways antithetical to competitive markets (so no) and it needs a bit of government help in order to avoid being taken over by capitalists.
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@DrPen that's not true at all! Many of the Web's most important services are run as oligopolies or monopolies.
@evan competition isnt only the obvious antitrust kind, its the stabs in the back, the bribery, the buying out /destroying the competition, those oligarch bros try to out do each other. Even the space rockets! Academia is packed with competitive salary and job title hunters.
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@evan competition isnt only the obvious antitrust kind, its the stabs in the back, the bribery, the buying out /destroying the competition, those oligarch bros try to out do each other. Even the space rockets! Academia is packed with competitive salary and job title hunters.
@DrPen which is why I linked the Wikipedia article on competition in markets.
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@evan the open web is in some ways antithetical to competitive markets (so no) and it needs a bit of government help in order to avoid being taken over by capitalists.
@anca what? How is a monopoly web sector "open"? I don't understand your point.
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@anca what? How is a monopoly web sector "open"? I don't understand your point.
@anca I realize that Web markets, like maybe most markets, are vulnerable to capture by monopolies or oligopolies, but I don't think that means the open web is antithetical to competition.
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@evan Yes. We need a combination of publicly funded basic infrastructure and an economy of small to medium sized companies, that offer services for open-source.
Instead of big-tech, we need big-market.
@kaffeeringe so, public, small and medium sized companies that provide a competitive market for products and services?
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@evan I most certainly don't have any answers, but it's a super interesting discussion. Somewhere in there lies the question of interoperability (if I'm using it correctly). I we could all connect and "talk to" FB users using other tools/services then users would have choice (competition would exist). We could have groups for our local community and invite to birthdays without being "slaves" to FB. And if we didn't like the algo, we'd use a tool/service with a different algo (or no algo).
@leanderlindahl thanks! I think it's interesting too.
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Does the open web require competitive markets?
@evan Is it implied that markets will always exist, and the question is (therefore) whether they need to be open or not?
Or is it acceptable to answer "no" because the open web doesn't require markets at all?
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@evan Is it implied that markets will always exist, and the question is (therefore) whether they need to be open or not?
Or is it acceptable to answer "no" because the open web doesn't require markets at all?
@woozle it's always acceptable to answer as you wish!
I really regret using the term "market" instead of "technology sector" or something similar. The technical definitions of "market" seem to encompass tech sectors where many of the products, including labour, are available gratis, but I think a lot of people got hung up on the idea of commercial exchange.
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@woozle it's always acceptable to answer as you wish!
I really regret using the term "market" instead of "technology sector" or something similar. The technical definitions of "market" seem to encompass tech sectors where many of the products, including labour, are available gratis, but I think a lot of people got hung up on the idea of commercial exchange.
@woozle I personally am much more interested in the "competitive" part rather than the "market" part, which is why I linked the Wikipedia article on competition.
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Does the open web require competitive markets?
Wow, what an interesting set of results. I think the answer is "yes".
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Wow, what an interesting set of results. I think the answer is "yes".
I created this poll because I've been thinking a lot about Mozilla since the announcement of their new CEO. A lot of people here criticised the hire, since he said that Mozilla would make Firefox an "AI Browser". I don't mind that, although I don't think AI browsers are that useful, and I think running into the market where Atlas, Comet, Dia and others are already floundering sounds like a dumb bet.
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But that's beside the point. I don't think that monopolies are compatible with an open web, and those of us who believe in the open web should carefully consider whether our work encourages or discourages anti-competitive practices.
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I also think it's catastrophically bad to think that only computer manufacturers, mobile phone makers, domain registrars, hosting providers, and terrestrial and mobile ISPs should be allowed to get paid for providing Internet services. Many people who spend hundreds or thousands of dollars a year to get access to the Web are reluctant to chip in $20 for their Mastodon server.
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I'm honestly surprised to see so many "No" answers to this question. From the anti-commercial replies, I think at least some of the No's come from a concentration on the word "markets" rather on the word "competitive". I think the economic definition of a "market" encompasses non-commercial services and products. But maybe I should have found some wording that doesn't make people hit the "I HATE COMPANIES" button so hard.
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@viladis1971.bsky.social
https://bsky.app/profile/viladis1971.bsky.social/post/3magpuetjis2e
> David Bowie.
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Foglie morte di Nazim Hikmet (Salonicco, 1902 – Mosca, 1963)
Veder cadere le foglie mi lacera dentro
soprattutto le foglie dei viali
soprattutto se sono ippocastani
soprattutto se passano dei bimbi
soprattutto se il cielo è sereno ... https://cctm.website/nazim-hikmet-foglie-morte/
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I think "the open web" is by definition a multi-polar environment where many service providers, software creators, and platforms interact using interoperable standards. I think the "open" in "open web" requires multiple actors; a single company cannot be "open" with itself.
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If Mozilla is really purpose-driven, I think the number one goal of the organization should be getting out of the monopoly headlock it's in right now. It should find another buyer for its search engine placement service, and it should diversify its revenue to get the business on a firm footing that doesn't keep governments from enforcing competitive markets.
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I personally think that participating in an anti-competitive business practice that a court has found hurts American (and assumably also global) consumers and other businesses is not compatible with that purpose. I don't think that humans flourish in systems dominated by monopolies that use their power to extend those monopolies. Neither have most economists since about 1875.
