Should expatriate citizens of your country have the right to vote?
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@DavidBHimself What determiner should I have used instead?
The first person singular (my) didn't seem appropriate either 😅
@EdwinG "my" works. "our" implies that either you and I have the same (we don't) or that the whole world has the same (definitely not). Naming the country is probably the best option here.
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@EdwinG So, this has nothing to do with changing countries.
@DavidBHimself Yeah, that specifically wasn't countries... I still couldn't vote for the people that would represent me.
It's my understanding that it used to be the case that Canadians would lose their national voting rights if they live abroad for over 5 years:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170719195520/http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=reg/etr&document=index&lang=eThat is no longer the case:
https://elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=reg/etr&document=index&lang=e#etr3 -
@DavidBHimself Yes, I agree that "expat" is a cringe term, especially because it's used to differentiate "white" emigrants from regular emigrants
But I'm not generalizing; I'm just observing that the vast majority of emigrants from my country disproportionately favor centrist and center-right parties, and I don't like that. No, I don't believe in democracy.
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@evan I would say no.
My rationale: Who am I as a resident and citizen of another country to decide what the residents of my other citizenship country wish/want. I don’t pay taxes there, I don’t participate in their active life, etc. For all intents and purposes, they are foreigners
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@evan No, but countries should be abolished anyways so this shouldn't matter.
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@evan given it's nigh on impossible to renounce US citizenship and stop paying taxes.
The argument is that the rich would flee the country.
To which I ask, for where?
The Emirates? Where citizenship is bought and can be removed at the whim of a royal? To China, where the Politburo understands you keep the rich on the shortest of leashes? To the UK, who opened their doors to Russian gangsters who shiv, poison, and defenestrate?
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@evan no, but all people resident in an area should be able to vote (which is almost true in Scotland except for prisoners and Westminster elections)
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@evan I’m a Brazilian immigrant* and not only we can but we have to - vote is mandatory in Brazil. I only need to vote in presidential elections though.
* expat is a problematic word
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@evan though only in national elections, not local ones.
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@evan I’m a Brazilian immigrant* and not only we can but we have to - vote is mandatory in Brazil. I only need to vote in presidential elections though.
* expat is a problematic word
@fabio say "emigrant" then. If you're living outside of Brazil, you're not an immigrant to Brazil.
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@evan I like how Germany does things. Not only can Germans who live abroad vote, European (non-German) citizens can also vote in Germany for local parliaments. They can also vote in the European Parliament elections.
I would love it if non-European citizens living in Germany had the same possibility. I also think it would be good if they could vote at state level.
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@fabio say "emigrant" then. If you're living outside of Brazil, you're not an immigrant to Brazil.
@evan Good point!
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@fabio say "emigrant" then. If you're living outside of Brazil, you're not an immigrant to Brazil.
@fabio I intentionally chose "expatriate" as an accurate and clear term for describing citizens who live outside their nation of citizenship.
"Expatriate" and "emigrant" are almost synonyms, but "emigrant" is less well known and suggests the immediate aftermath of leaving.
I considered "overseas citizens", "voters abroad", and other terms, but I settled on expatriate because it's clear and accurate.
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@fabio I intentionally chose "expatriate" as an accurate and clear term for describing citizens who live outside their nation of citizenship.
"Expatriate" and "emigrant" are almost synonyms, but "emigrant" is less well known and suggests the immediate aftermath of leaving.
I considered "overseas citizens", "voters abroad", and other terms, but I settled on expatriate because it's clear and accurate.
@fabio I am aware of the concern you expressed.
People from richer countries living in poorer countries often have the luxury of defining themselves by their relationship with their home country, so they call themselves "expatriates" and expect others to do so too.
People from poorer countries don't have that luxury. They are defined by people in their new home country, so they are called "immigrants". Association with their country of origin is highlighted as a sign of unworthiness.
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@fabio I am aware of the concern you expressed.
People from richer countries living in poorer countries often have the luxury of defining themselves by their relationship with their home country, so they call themselves "expatriates" and expect others to do so too.
People from poorer countries don't have that luxury. They are defined by people in their new home country, so they are called "immigrants". Association with their country of origin is highlighted as a sign of unworthiness.
@fabio in this poll, I am specifically talking about the relationship with the country of origin. We are not talking about how people are viewed and defined in their country of residence.
There are other terms, like diaspora, used for this kind of population.
So, I'm OK with using "expatriate". It represents an unfair power dynamic in some situations, but not this one.
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@fabio say "emigrant" then. If you're living outside of Brazil, you're not an immigrant to Brazil.
@evan @fabio Fabio is right. Expatriate is a term that spun out of white colonizers living in the other parts of the world, where they have no intention of becoming a part of the society, including accepting citizenship.
Would most people call Jamaican temporary foreign workers on Canadian farms that are treated as slave labour "expats"?
When I went to China to work, was I a Canadian expat? Would I be considered one from the lens of a Chinese national vs a Canadian? The place where I was born is a part of China now. I don't even know what my rights are anymore with regards to my birth place. I'm a Canadian citizen.
Expatriate is a term that's drowning in class, racism, and white colonial history. Perhaps you should reconsider its use.
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@evan I like how Germany does things. Not only can Germans who live abroad vote, European (non-German) citizens can also vote in Germany for local parliaments. They can also vote in the European Parliament elections.
I would love it if non-European citizens living in Germany had the same possibility. I also think it would be good if they could vote at state level.
@heluecht @evan The rules are consistent across the EU with respect to EU citizens' voting in other EU countries for MEP elections; with the added wrinkle that you can vote for a candidate in your country of residence or in your home country, but not both 😊
Local and national election rules are much more of a mixed bag although it's common for EU citizens to at least be given local election (county/land/etc.) privileges.
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@evan @fabio Fabio is right. Expatriate is a term that spun out of white colonizers living in the other parts of the world, where they have no intention of becoming a part of the society, including accepting citizenship.
Would most people call Jamaican temporary foreign workers on Canadian farms that are treated as slave labour "expats"?
When I went to China to work, was I a Canadian expat? Would I be considered one from the lens of a Chinese national vs a Canadian? The place where I was born is a part of China now. I don't even know what my rights are anymore with regards to my birth place. I'm a Canadian citizen.
Expatriate is a term that's drowning in class, racism, and white colonial history. Perhaps you should reconsider its use.
@evan @fabio And further down the thread to:
https://cosocial.ca/@evan/115956282132331931"Country of origin" also gets really messy if you have multiple citizenships and grew up in different places. Or if some citizenships no longer exist (like my birth place).
A clearer, not-problematic question: "Should people who do not permanently reside in their country of citizenship have the right to vote?"
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@evan @fabio Fabio is right. Expatriate is a term that spun out of white colonizers living in the other parts of the world, where they have no intention of becoming a part of the society, including accepting citizenship.
Would most people call Jamaican temporary foreign workers on Canadian farms that are treated as slave labour "expats"?
When I went to China to work, was I a Canadian expat? Would I be considered one from the lens of a Chinese national vs a Canadian? The place where I was born is a part of China now. I don't even know what my rights are anymore with regards to my birth place. I'm a Canadian citizen.
Expatriate is a term that's drowning in class, racism, and white colonial history. Perhaps you should reconsider its use.
I worked in other countries and adopted the expat label, without thinking, frankly just because everyone else was using it.
After some reflection I think that calling myself a "guest worker" was more appropriate. So that is whatI started using toward the end.
Same idea but a bit less formal than "temporary foreign worker".
Gli ultimi otto messaggi ricevuti dalla Federazione
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La mia bambina mi ha regalato questo disegno per I miei 50 anni... Mi ha capito subito!
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Another thing that people honed in on was "software engineering" versus "programming", "software development", or other names for building software. I didn't intend it as a major focus, but I did want to cover all the parts of the job of getting software made -- not just typing code.
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@GustavinoBevilacqua
Piuttosto che niente, ok gli IED.
Ma io sono fedele alle mine antiuomo, lo sai.I bei tempi di Oto Melara.
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/OTO_Melara
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@julian Ha, good point!
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@evan too late to vote but my vote would be "very important", pondering that it could have been lower if you asked me in the past, mostly because with the AI tools now it's critical to have someone review the generated code. A less experienced engineer would accept the code as is without thinking of implications
On the flip side of arguments, I also less experience can be good sometimes, having a fearless team member can explore new ideas without the baggage of past experiences
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@dimillian @m00nk @IceCubesApp That's great news.
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@evan@cosocial.ca "young", "inexperienced", "small". That particular constellation of adjectives would lead to a pretty bad product I think!
The important keyword here is "small". A small but experienced team will run circles around any other combination. Age is less important (but tends to correlate with experience, one would assume.)
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Io mi farei vedere mentre confeziono qualche IED¹ e poi cerco su Google Maps le indicazioni per raggiungere le sedi di Meta in giro per l'Europa.
Che succederebbe?
~~
