when do you usually use the man page for a complex command line tool to answer a question you have?
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@b0rk
It used to be --help, and I sometimes still use it (but frustrated from browsers etc. that don't comply to the convention) - no need to state that, but I found something more interesting:
Many tools come with bash completion when installed through a package manager.
So the first thing I really try nowadays is:
- type a few promising characters
- hit TAB
- if unsuccessful, delete some, type some new.
If this won't work, I might try the man page - or a google search, it depends.@b0rk
Now that I read your second question, I must also mention "tldr".
It often has a useful selection of those use cases that most users only ever use. If I want to something more advanced I have to research it somewhere else, anyway. -
when do you usually use the man page for a complex command line tool to answer a question you have? (like git, openssl, rsync, curl, etc)
(edit: no need to say "i use --help then man")
@b0rk man is my go-to tool when I sorta already know what I'm trying to do but can't quite remember what the arguments look like
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i'm very curious about everyone who says "I'd look there first", if I want to figure out how to do something new I think I'll usually google how to do it rather than look at the man page, and then maybe later look at the man page to look up the details
(I've gotten enough of these answers:
- "I like that man pages don't require changing context"
- "with the man page I know I have the right version of the docs")@b0rk So, this is a conditionalized problem, my P(man page first | man page exists) is high – because if it's a new tool, and it has a man page, usually the man page is *actually quite good*, and actually fulfills the role of "manual" better than most (say, GNU coreutils) manpages, which just are slightly more in-depth versions of `tool --help` (without the actual structural difference that would make them manuals, as opposed to CLI option references).
Lots of tools don't ship with manpages… -
@b0rk So, this is a conditionalized problem, my P(man page first | man page exists) is high – because if it's a new tool, and it has a man page, usually the man page is *actually quite good*, and actually fulfills the role of "manual" better than most (say, GNU coreutils) manpages, which just are slightly more in-depth versions of `tool --help` (without the actual structural difference that would make them manuals, as opposed to CLI option references).
Lots of tools don't ship with manpages…@b0rk … anymore (`man mlr` doesn't work, `mlr --help` directly links to its docs website). And for more complex tools, that's probably fair – you're not going to learn how to use a massive tool from man pages (examples of "this should not be one man page" is `man gcc`,`man bash, `fish-doc`, `libuv` or `man mplayer`), but for smaller things, authors who sit down to write a man page for modern tools typically actually *think* about what is a sensible thing to put in that format.
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@b0rk … anymore (`man mlr` doesn't work, `mlr --help` directly links to its docs website). And for more complex tools, that's probably fair – you're not going to learn how to use a massive tool from man pages (examples of "this should not be one man page" is `man gcc`,`man bash, `fish-doc`, `libuv` or `man mplayer`), but for smaller things, authors who sit down to write a man page for modern tools typically actually *think* about what is a sensible thing to put in that format.
@b0rk In fact, that's been so often the case for me that I tend to think "OK, for 5 minutes of reading instead of 30 s of searching, I can actually learn how this generally works, is that worth 4min 30s? yes!" and then read the man page.
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@b0rk In fact, that's been so often the case for me that I tend to think "OK, for 5 minutes of reading instead of 30 s of searching, I can actually learn how this generally works, is that worth 4min 30s? yes!" and then read the man page.
@b0rk (Neither "not changing context" nor "same version" are good arguments, imho. I *want* to have the documentation in a different thing than the terminal I'm currently working in. What use is modern screens else. Tools rarely change so rapidly that the things I need to learn to get started would immediately outdate, and if they do, it's usually a good sign for that tool being pretty specialized and me probably needing to read more)
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also it just occurred to me that the one time I wrote a command line tool (https://rbspy.github.io/) I didn't write a man page for it, I made a documentation website instead. I don't remember even considering writing a man page, probably because I rarely use man pages
(not looking to argue about whether command line tools "should" have man pages or not, just reflecting about how maybe I personally would prefer a good docs website over a man page. Also please no "webpages require internet")
@b0rk I've written --help output, but I've never known how to write a man page.
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@aburka that's what fish does! Well it just opens the HTML file in the browser, no need to start a local web server for those docs
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@b0rk the mentioned utilities, mostly man page. ffmpeg? Straight to search.
@danlyke @b0rk FFmpeg options and arguments are a language in their own right. Knowledge about video formats is more trade knowledge than conceptual knowledge, and I've always had difficulty getting motivated to study that kind of stuff, so I look to the web for information about how to use ffmpeg, and yeah, I use it as cargo cult code. I bookmark them under "ffmpeg-recipes".
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when do you usually use the man page for a complex command line tool to answer a question you have? (like git, openssl, rsync, curl, etc)
(edit: no need to say "i use --help then man")
@b0rk "That depends..." Isn't a great answer, but that's the case. Reference for command line options? Man page first. Example usage and reference applications? Google search, AI tools. Project website first, man page examples after. Except if it's a bash question, then man page first.
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when do you usually use the man page for a complex command line tool to answer a question you have? (like git, openssl, rsync, curl, etc)
(edit: no need to say "i use --help then man")
@b0rk if we include --help in this, the answer is “whenever I know a tool can do a thing but can’t remember how”. If I don’t know which tool can do a thing, I search the internet rather than using apropos or similar.
I don’t often use actual man pages (except man bash), because I’ve been conditioned by how many tools don’t have them: in theory everything in Ubuntu should, because it’s from Debian which also should, but there’s lots of man 7 undocumented in there so I was Pavlov’ed away from it. -
@b0rk if we include --help in this, the answer is “whenever I know a tool can do a thing but can’t remember how”. If I don’t know which tool can do a thing, I search the internet rather than using apropos or similar.
I don’t often use actual man pages (except man bash), because I’ve been conditioned by how many tools don’t have them: in theory everything in Ubuntu should, because it’s from Debian which also should, but there’s lots of man 7 undocumented in there so I was Pavlov’ed away from it.@b0rk but I tend to use --help before searches, because as you and others say, searches are so clogged with shit these days that they’re unreliable. Although it’s reassuring to see how often manpages.ubuntu.com is at the top of the list.
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i'm very curious about everyone who says "I'd look there first", if I want to figure out how to do something new I think I'll usually google how to do it rather than look at the man page, and then maybe later look at the man page to look up the details
(I've gotten enough of these answers:
- "I like that man pages don't require changing context"
- "with the man page I know I have the right version of the docs")@b0rk reading the manpage I also accidentally learn stuff I wasn't looking for. Oftentimes I learn that what I was planning to do was the wrong approach and learn how to do it better.
Reading the man page also makes the knowledge "sink in" more for me, so next time I won't have to look it up.
That's why I read the --help and the manpage first. Your brain might work differently, I'm not trying to tell you you should as well.
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@b0rk for some commands I know the manpage is decent and I'll look there. for others I know it doesn't exist or is crap, so I'll check -h or just search online. I sometimes reach for it first on new commands, sometimes not. no real rhyme or reason, mostly just whatever direction my brain goes in the moment.
I do, however, hate certain manpages with a fiery passion. like builtins being one giant manpage that you can't search because it looks for results in all builtin commands. hateful design.
@gsuberland @b0rk pet hate: when you type <command> -h, and it responds along the lines of “-h is not a recognised option, use -? for help” (or vice versa).
That’s some passive aggressive bullshit, just give me the damn help options 🤨
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i'm very curious about everyone who says "I'd look there first", if I want to figure out how to do something new I think I'll usually google how to do it rather than look at the man page, and then maybe later look at the man page to look up the details
(I've gotten enough of these answers:
- "I like that man pages don't require changing context"
- "with the man page I know I have the right version of the docs")@b0rk Assuming the man page docset is properly curated, it should be a comprehensive an authoritative answer to how the tool works.
Caveat: I spent years in a techpubs department writing and maintaining UNIX man pages. I have strong opinions!
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i'm very curious about everyone who says "I'd look there first", if I want to figure out how to do something new I think I'll usually google how to do it rather than look at the man page, and then maybe later look at the man page to look up the details
(I've gotten enough of these answers:
- "I like that man pages don't require changing context"
- "with the man page I know I have the right version of the docs")@b0rk I guess it depends on what you mean by "figure out how to do something"
If I've already figured out what command/function to use but am unsure of the details, man pages are just faster. And if that doesn't help, I'll look elsewhere
If I don't know what man page to even look at, then I'll search first
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i'm very curious about everyone who says "I'd look there first", if I want to figure out how to do something new I think I'll usually google how to do it rather than look at the man page, and then maybe later look at the man page to look up the details
(I've gotten enough of these answers:
- "I like that man pages don't require changing context"
- "with the man page I know I have the right version of the docs")@b0rk I learned Unix thirty years ago, when the manpages were what was easiest to get at, and so that's what became my habitual first stop ... for things that have manpages anyway. I also have Firefox "custom search keywords" dedicated to the Python and Rust documentation websites.
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when do you usually use the man page for a complex command line tool to answer a question you have? (like git, openssl, rsync, curl, etc)
(edit: no need to say "i use --help then man")
@b0rk I use the man page reference on the web first. It’s just quicker for me.
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@b0rk The point of having a man page (or as you edited the original post: a --help) is that it's self-contained and, hopefully, true to the actual thing you're trying to run. The website requires an internet connection and it might be about a newer version than you have (did your distro or you forget to upgrade the tool?) or older (did the author forget to update the documentation?) and while a site is often a better UX (graphical browsers and whatnot), those are issues to be considered.
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when do you usually use the man page for a complex command line tool to answer a question you have? (like git, openssl, rsync, curl, etc)
(edit: no need to say "i use --help then man")
@b0rk 1. Scan --help. If I can’t figure it out within a minute or two,
2. Web search. If not found,
3. man pageIn that order.
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