Should Fediverse interfaces that have a "Like" button also have a "Dislike" button?
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@evan I think there is a required level of common understanding needed to really have like/dislike, upvote/downvote, or agree/disagree be usable without being abused - it doesn't translate well across online sub-cultures without some careful UX thinking and knowing your user community.
It works on Ravelry, which uses "Agree/Disagree" but there are two essentials there that I have not seen anywhere else: /con't
1) Common context and language - there are 11 or so million users but we all knit or at least do some kind of yarn crafting.
2) Individual users and group administrators can selectively enable/disable these "click to comment generically" shorthands - so if a group moderator doesn't want Disagree whining in their group, they turn it off; if an individual user doesn't want to be bothered by seeing these, they can hide them.
Also, Ravelry has 6 of these for nuance:
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1) Common context and language - there are 11 or so million users but we all knit or at least do some kind of yarn crafting.
2) Individual users and group administrators can selectively enable/disable these "click to comment generically" shorthands - so if a group moderator doesn't want Disagree whining in their group, they turn it off; if an individual user doesn't want to be bothered by seeing these, they can hide them.
Also, Ravelry has 6 of these for nuance:
Oh, I suppose a third reason these work well in the specific Ravelry community is that it is actively and collaboratively moderated and has a very simple but well laid out Code of Conduct. And a longstanding culture of everyone there being on board with a clear understanding of what those buttons mean - "Disagree" is to be taken as referring to the objective content of a post, such as "the BEST way to knit is Continental" being something one can disagree with.
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@evan So I said "no" but I should have said "no, but".
I don't understand the purpose of there being a favorite button at all, there's no algorithm so number of likes and dislikes doesn't change anything.
So my "no, but" is that they shouldn't have a favorite button either. They should encourage people to boost things, since that's how the "algorithm" works here -- favoriting something doesn't help other people find it so it is a placebo that gets in the way of actually spreading cool stuff.
@bipolaron It's OK if you don't understand.
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Oh, I suppose a third reason these work well in the specific Ravelry community is that it is actively and collaboratively moderated and has a very simple but well laid out Code of Conduct. And a longstanding culture of everyone there being on board with a clear understanding of what those buttons mean - "Disagree" is to be taken as referring to the objective content of a post, such as "the BEST way to knit is Continental" being something one can disagree with.
@evan It's very hard to be an asshole on Ravelry because the other 10,999,999 users either won't acknowledge your existence, or if you're forcing them to do so, they will not only put you in the corner with no privileges, but they will likely find your mother, your grandmother and every auntie who ever taught you a thing about knitting and they will get you flat-out grounded or beaten with a flipflop until you smarten up.
Knitters should be consulted for any community management plan, srsly.
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@evan So I said "no" but I should have said "no, but".
I don't understand the purpose of there being a favorite button at all, there's no algorithm so number of likes and dislikes doesn't change anything.
So my "no, but" is that they shouldn't have a favorite button either. They should encourage people to boost things, since that's how the "algorithm" works here -- favoriting something doesn't help other people find it so it is a placebo that gets in the way of actually spreading cool stuff.
@bipolaron but every favourite makes me feel seen and liked! like eye contact or a smile!
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@bipolaron but every favourite makes me feel seen and liked! like eye contact or a smile!
@sus I do like that little bit, though I feel like I'd boost more if it weren't an option. I think I don't understand the original poll because it must be about a kind of instance I'm not on and have never heard of.
I didn't realize any mastodon instances were more like a reddit in this way, if that's what was meant, sounds very different for sure.
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@sus I do like that little bit, though I feel like I'd boost more if it weren't an option. I think I don't understand the original poll because it must be about a kind of instance I'm not on and have never heard of.
I didn't realize any mastodon instances were more like a reddit in this way, if that's what was meant, sounds very different for sure.
@bipolaron @sus there’s other software (not mastodon but still Fediverse integrated) like lemmy and PieFed that does operate like Reddit
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@bipolaron @sus there’s other software (not mastodon but still Fediverse integrated) like lemmy and PieFed that does operate like Reddit
@GroupNebula563 @sus oh yeah, I forgot about lemmy. honestly kinda thought it died out but I'm sure the same has been said of mastodon and pixelfed infinity times. go lemmy!
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@evan You only need dislike to feed algorithms not people. Keep Mastodon people friendly.
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Thanks to everyone who replied.
I am a Yes, but. I think downvote/dislike buttons are a great distributed moderation tool. Many of the microaggressions (and not-so-micro aggressions) that make social networks difficult could be helped a lot by peer moderation.
The "but" is that it is hard to implement well, and hard to ensure that mobs don't silence important but unpopular voices.
@evan That's why you should consider the opinion of those you trust, not just anyone. Maybe
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@benbrown Reddit has downvote and it's a pretty essential part of their system.
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@evan That's why you should consider the opinion of those you trust, not just anyone. Maybe
@liilliil sure.
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@evan You only need dislike to feed algorithms not people. Keep Mastodon people friendly.
@cmsdengl 1) Fediverse, not Mastodon 2) the algorithm is as simple as "things that are highly downvoted should be hidden by default".
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Thanks to everyone who replied.
I am a Yes, but. I think downvote/dislike buttons are a great distributed moderation tool. Many of the microaggressions (and not-so-micro aggressions) that make social networks difficult could be helped a lot by peer moderation.
The "but" is that it is hard to implement well, and hard to ensure that mobs don't silence important but unpopular voices.
@evan I see the appeal for distributed moderation but am unsure a dislike button could accomplish it. I recall Slashdot (though haven't used it in a long time) had descriptive words that could be "voted' on, which made filtering for certain qualities (e.g. looking for expertise) possible. I fear that a dislike button could lead to "downvoting" stuff without consideration and maybe diminish interaction. Liking adds a positive feeling but I don't want to put effort into disliking people's stuff.
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@evan I see the appeal for distributed moderation but am unsure a dislike button could accomplish it. I recall Slashdot (though haven't used it in a long time) had descriptive words that could be "voted' on, which made filtering for certain qualities (e.g. looking for expertise) possible. I fear that a dislike button could lead to "downvoting" stuff without consideration and maybe diminish interaction. Liking adds a positive feeling but I don't want to put effort into disliking people's stuff.
@owlyph I think the key use case is a popular post with a lot of comments. Many of the responses will be bad -- mansplaining, hostile, etc. Without a dislike button, the original poster or another commenter has to reply to the post, explaining for the umpteenth time why mansplaining is unacceptable (or whatever). This puts the conversation into a he-said-she-said mode, where the OP has to argue for why the behaviour is wrong.
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@owlyph I think the key use case is a popular post with a lot of comments. Many of the responses will be bad -- mansplaining, hostile, etc. Without a dislike button, the original poster or another commenter has to reply to the post, explaining for the umpteenth time why mansplaining is unacceptable (or whatever). This puts the conversation into a he-said-she-said mode, where the OP has to argue for why the behaviour is wrong.
@owlyph A dislike button, on the other hand, gives instant, distributed, low-friction feedback. It shifts the effort from the OP to the community, and it gives the OP a sense of collective support: "We all know why this sucks."
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@owlyph I think the key use case is a popular post with a lot of comments. Many of the responses will be bad -- mansplaining, hostile, etc. Without a dislike button, the original poster or another commenter has to reply to the post, explaining for the umpteenth time why mansplaining is unacceptable (or whatever). This puts the conversation into a he-said-she-said mode, where the OP has to argue for why the behaviour is wrong.
@evan I see how that makes sense and that sounds like it could unburden people in some ways. I worry about a sort of mob mentality too that might not give legitimate comments a chance... seems like something I've seen happen on Reddit occasionally. Maybe the trade-off in risk would be worth it. Maybe there's also a distinction in having such a button on replies to a post versus having it on the original post.
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@cmsdengl 1) Fediverse, not Mastodon 2) the algorithm is as simple as "things that are highly downvoted should be hidden by default".
@evan I expect a patronising response and wasn't disappointed. Muted.
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@evan I see how that makes sense and that sounds like it could unburden people in some ways. I worry about a sort of mob mentality too that might not give legitimate comments a chance... seems like something I've seen happen on Reddit occasionally. Maybe the trade-off in risk would be worth it. Maybe there's also a distinction in having such a button on replies to a post versus having it on the original post.
@owlyph I think we have an advantage over Reddit in that each person has an audience outside the thread. I can say something that's important to me, and even if it's not seen in the thread because it's unpopular there, it would still be seen by my followers, who by definition want to hear what I have to say. I think the follow graph in Reddit exists, but it's much less important than the forum-style posting.
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