Would an ActivityPub enabled fediverse alternative of Discord be possible?
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There seems to be a serious lack of a Discord equivalent fediverse platform unlike other social media alternatives. Most of the closest options are either too overwhelming in UI/UX for majority of people coming from Discord, missing deal-breaking features like video calling or are not federated.
Could it due to some technical limitation of the ActivityPub protocol? I skimmed through its documentation and I get the impression that content may not be accommodating of instant messaging without unconventional modifications. It would also be troublesome to federate massive bunch of messages across (physical) servers in real time.
If it were truly possible to create a Discord alternative, what would it take to make it compatible with the fediverse while also ensuring it feels functional and intuitive for migrating users and not pose too much of a resource drain for self hosters?
Edit: Modified title to clarify post talking about ActivityPub in particular
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There seems to be a serious lack of a Discord equivalent fediverse platform unlike other social media alternatives. Most of the closest options are either too overwhelming in UI/UX for majority of people coming from Discord, missing deal-breaking features like video calling or are not federated.
Could it due to some technical limitation of the ActivityPub protocol? I skimmed through its documentation and I get the impression that content may not be accommodating of instant messaging without unconventional modifications. It would also be troublesome to federate massive bunch of messages across (physical) servers in real time.
If it were truly possible to create a Discord alternative, what would it take to make it compatible with the fediverse while also ensuring it feels functional and intuitive for migrating users and not pose too much of a resource drain for self hosters?
Edit: Modified title to clarify post talking about ActivityPub in particular
Just fyi there is matrix which is federated but it doesn't use activity pub protocol and it's not directly a drop in replacement discord. Voice/ video/ screen sharing aren't quite on the same level as discord.
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There seems to be a serious lack of a Discord equivalent fediverse platform unlike other social media alternatives. Most of the closest options are either too overwhelming in UI/UX for majority of people coming from Discord, missing deal-breaking features like video calling or are not federated.
Could it due to some technical limitation of the ActivityPub protocol? I skimmed through its documentation and I get the impression that content may not be accommodating of instant messaging without unconventional modifications. It would also be troublesome to federate massive bunch of messages across (physical) servers in real time.
If it were truly possible to create a Discord alternative, what would it take to make it compatible with the fediverse while also ensuring it feels functional and intuitive for migrating users and not pose too much of a resource drain for self hosters?
Edit: Modified title to clarify post talking about ActivityPub in particular
What about Matrix and XMPP?
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There seems to be a serious lack of a Discord equivalent fediverse platform unlike other social media alternatives. Most of the closest options are either too overwhelming in UI/UX for majority of people coming from Discord, missing deal-breaking features like video calling or are not federated.
Could it due to some technical limitation of the ActivityPub protocol? I skimmed through its documentation and I get the impression that content may not be accommodating of instant messaging without unconventional modifications. It would also be troublesome to federate massive bunch of messages across (physical) servers in real time.
If it were truly possible to create a Discord alternative, what would it take to make it compatible with the fediverse while also ensuring it feels functional and intuitive for migrating users and not pose too much of a resource drain for self hosters?
Edit: Modified title to clarify post talking about ActivityPub in particular
Isn't that Matrix?
ActivityPub wouldn't work because it's not a messaging protocol. It's a publishing protocol. The closest thing you have is Lemmy- where you have a server (instance) with channels (communities).
It'll be easier to achieve something like this using SMTP (email protocol) than with ActivityPub.
Matrix and XMPP are your best bets (although XMPP doesn't necessarily natively have video call, usually you'll have an accompanying TURN server)
What you can do with email, xmpp and the fediverse is have the same username. It is possible for someone to make a platform which gives you one name and it accepts email, xmpp and fedi. Unfortunately, Matrix, for some strange reason uses the format of @name:server instead of the standard name@server (activitypub might use @name@server but that's close enough and a lot of lemmy frontends don't even care for the initial @. In reality that initial @ is probably just being used to ping them, now realising.)
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There seems to be a serious lack of a Discord equivalent fediverse platform unlike other social media alternatives. Most of the closest options are either too overwhelming in UI/UX for majority of people coming from Discord, missing deal-breaking features like video calling or are not federated.
Could it due to some technical limitation of the ActivityPub protocol? I skimmed through its documentation and I get the impression that content may not be accommodating of instant messaging without unconventional modifications. It would also be troublesome to federate massive bunch of messages across (physical) servers in real time.
If it were truly possible to create a Discord alternative, what would it take to make it compatible with the fediverse while also ensuring it feels functional and intuitive for migrating users and not pose too much of a resource drain for self hosters?
Edit: Modified title to clarify post talking about ActivityPub in particular
Is Discord social media? Social sure, but not media really.
It always seemed to be more a live communication/chat app to me. -
There seems to be a serious lack of a Discord equivalent fediverse platform unlike other social media alternatives. Most of the closest options are either too overwhelming in UI/UX for majority of people coming from Discord, missing deal-breaking features like video calling or are not federated.
Could it due to some technical limitation of the ActivityPub protocol? I skimmed through its documentation and I get the impression that content may not be accommodating of instant messaging without unconventional modifications. It would also be troublesome to federate massive bunch of messages across (physical) servers in real time.
If it were truly possible to create a Discord alternative, what would it take to make it compatible with the fediverse while also ensuring it feels functional and intuitive for migrating users and not pose too much of a resource drain for self hosters?
Edit: Modified title to clarify post talking about ActivityPub in particular
Discord has both private and public channels. I won't bother considering their threaded discussion offerings, because they're absolutely horrendous.
ActivityPub is primarily public. You have scoped visibility that enables things like private messaging, but there is no implementation that allows for federated private group discussions.
There are proposals and a few implementations, but they all rely on everybody else to implement the same proposal, otherwise messages leak out, and that defeats the entire assumption of the private group.
It's not an unsolvable problem, merely one that hasn't been successfully solved yet.
As for whether AP is a good fit... It'll work. At the end of the day you're exchanging messages. Whether they're long form or chat messages makes little difference.
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Isn't that Matrix?
ActivityPub wouldn't work because it's not a messaging protocol. It's a publishing protocol. The closest thing you have is Lemmy- where you have a server (instance) with channels (communities).
It'll be easier to achieve something like this using SMTP (email protocol) than with ActivityPub.
Matrix and XMPP are your best bets (although XMPP doesn't necessarily natively have video call, usually you'll have an accompanying TURN server)
What you can do with email, xmpp and the fediverse is have the same username. It is possible for someone to make a platform which gives you one name and it accepts email, xmpp and fedi. Unfortunately, Matrix, for some strange reason uses the format of @name:server instead of the standard name@server (activitypub might use @name@server but that's close enough and a lot of lemmy frontends don't even care for the initial @. In reality that initial @ is probably just being used to ping them, now realising.)
Matrix just isn't up to it. It doesn't function the same really. It doesn't feel the same.
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Isn't that Matrix?
ActivityPub wouldn't work because it's not a messaging protocol. It's a publishing protocol. The closest thing you have is Lemmy- where you have a server (instance) with channels (communities).
It'll be easier to achieve something like this using SMTP (email protocol) than with ActivityPub.
Matrix and XMPP are your best bets (although XMPP doesn't necessarily natively have video call, usually you'll have an accompanying TURN server)
What you can do with email, xmpp and the fediverse is have the same username. It is possible for someone to make a platform which gives you one name and it accepts email, xmpp and fedi. Unfortunately, Matrix, for some strange reason uses the format of @name:server instead of the standard name@server (activitypub might use @name@server but that's close enough and a lot of lemmy frontends don't even care for the initial @. In reality that initial @ is probably just being used to ping them, now realising.)
although XMPP doesn’t necessarily natively have video call, usually you’ll have an accompanying TURN server
The same is true for Matrix and the popular Ejabberd xmpp server has a Stun/Turn server built in, which makes it even easier to setup than what you have on Matrix.
P.S.: Matrix also isn't a messaging protocol. It is a distributed database protocol that has been abused for making a messenger with it.
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Matrix just isn't up to it. It doesn't function the same really. It doesn't feel the same.
You can't choose what order channels are in, for one thing
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Matrix just isn't up to it. It doesn't function the same really. It doesn't feel the same.
That might not be a bad thing. I hate Discord. That might come due to its usage though. It's just not made to organize technical support.
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That might not be a bad thing. I hate Discord. That might come due to its usage though. It's just not made to organize technical support.
Well yes, that's the problem. Matrix is just used for tech/troubleshoot issues and it's buggy as hell.
It isn't a social experience like discord. It is a gap in the fediverse
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There seems to be a serious lack of a Discord equivalent fediverse platform unlike other social media alternatives. Most of the closest options are either too overwhelming in UI/UX for majority of people coming from Discord, missing deal-breaking features like video calling or are not federated.
Could it due to some technical limitation of the ActivityPub protocol? I skimmed through its documentation and I get the impression that content may not be accommodating of instant messaging without unconventional modifications. It would also be troublesome to federate massive bunch of messages across (physical) servers in real time.
If it were truly possible to create a Discord alternative, what would it take to make it compatible with the fediverse while also ensuring it feels functional and intuitive for migrating users and not pose too much of a resource drain for self hosters?
Edit: Modified title to clarify post talking about ActivityPub in particular
It's totally possible to make a true 1-1 competitor to Discord but no one has done it yet.
Nextcloud Talk is probably the closest thing with federation. But Nextcloud is notoriously complicated to host. And for some reason super unpopular outside of Europe.
Stoat (formerly Revolt) is very close, both in functionality and UI. But is not federated (and has no plans to) and for some reason not very popular. Also doesn't come with the wealth of configuration and moderation tools that Discord does.
Matrix works but it's super slow, bug-ridden, and complicated to use.
Zulip is similar but I've used it fairly extensively and still have no idea WTF is happening. Also not federated.
Of course there's always IRC and whatever other ancient comms tools that still work fine but are very dated and lack functionality.
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Matrix just isn't up to it. It doesn't function the same really. It doesn't feel the same.
In what ways?
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It's totally possible to make a true 1-1 competitor to Discord but no one has done it yet.
Nextcloud Talk is probably the closest thing with federation. But Nextcloud is notoriously complicated to host. And for some reason super unpopular outside of Europe.
Stoat (formerly Revolt) is very close, both in functionality and UI. But is not federated (and has no plans to) and for some reason not very popular. Also doesn't come with the wealth of configuration and moderation tools that Discord does.
Matrix works but it's super slow, bug-ridden, and complicated to use.
Zulip is similar but I've used it fairly extensively and still have no idea WTF is happening. Also not federated.
Of course there's always IRC and whatever other ancient comms tools that still work fine but are very dated and lack functionality.
The Stoat development cycle is really, really slow. This is why it's just fallen away.
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In what ways?
Its buggy, it just doesn't really look like Discord. It is a chore for new users to use. There's no useful community discovery.
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Its buggy, it just doesn't really look like Discord. It is a chore for new users to use. There's no useful community discovery.
Don’t go looking for a 1 to 1 drop in. That mindset won’t work much. Same case wit expecting windows to work the same as windows: they’re just different and have to be learned in their own ways.
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Is Discord social media? Social sure, but not media really.
It always seemed to be more a live communication/chat app to me.Many people use it as forums.
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Don’t go looking for a 1 to 1 drop in. That mindset won’t work much. Same case wit expecting windows to work the same as windows: they’re just different and have to be learned in their own ways.
Right, but it almost doesn't matter because no-one is actually using matrix in the same way they might use Discord. It just isn't being used socially for hobbies and interests and a part of that is it's design and bugs and tedium getting set up.
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It's totally possible to make a true 1-1 competitor to Discord but no one has done it yet.
Nextcloud Talk is probably the closest thing with federation. But Nextcloud is notoriously complicated to host. And for some reason super unpopular outside of Europe.
Stoat (formerly Revolt) is very close, both in functionality and UI. But is not federated (and has no plans to) and for some reason not very popular. Also doesn't come with the wealth of configuration and moderation tools that Discord does.
Matrix works but it's super slow, bug-ridden, and complicated to use.
Zulip is similar but I've used it fairly extensively and still have no idea WTF is happening. Also not federated.
Of course there's always IRC and whatever other ancient comms tools that still work fine but are very dated and lack functionality.
Nextcloud talk has federation?
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Many people use it as forums.
Except it's completely gated behind Discord corporate servers, unsearchable outside of Discord, and all ownership lies with... you guessed it, Discord.
But oooh aah Nitro....
Gli ultimi otto messaggi ricevuti dalla Federazione
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@thisismissem@hachyderm.io replied but it didn't make it over to Lemmy.
> @poVoq @fediverse there's also a proposal (from google) for IdP Initiated FedCM, instead of relying party initiated
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This requires manually enabling every additional provider. This doesn’t work if some individuals or smaller collectives wanna run their own identity providers, numbering in the thousands.
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Forgejo has a feature (that people usually disable) where you can bring your own openid connect url and use it to auth. So if I have my own OIDC provider I am self hosting, I can just use that to log in.
Most people only use OIDC for google and microsoft and whatnot but it's very possible. I don't realkly see what FedCM offers that OIDC doesn't or can't, or why we shouldn't be adding features to the existing and popular OIDC instead.
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You might be confusing the old OpenID with OIDC (short for Open ID Connect), which is based on Oauth2, an entirely different technology.
OpenID was definitely more decentralized compared to how OIDC is commonly used these days, but OIDC has various little know options to do similar things.
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See what CIMD solves for. “Innately centralized” was probably a poor choice of words, but OIDC not a good fit for an open social web with decentralized identities and a plethora of small identity providers that cannot be known upfront.
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OIDC is innately centralized
Huh, that's not my understanding. I was there when it first came out, and the whole point was to allow you to use any URI of your choice as an authenticator. Let's see what the first line of Wikipedia has to say:
OpenID is an open standard and decentralized authentication protocol
Huh. 🤔
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OIDC isn't "innately centralized", thats just how the majority of people use it. And the same will be likely true for FedCM.
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@poVoq @fediverse there's also a proposal (from google) for IdP Initiated FedCM, instead of relying party initiated
