Big news for the #Fediverse!
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@bonfire @swf @sovtechfund @benpate Around the world I can hear politicians screaming, "But what about the children? We need to stop this."
Yup. Politicians probably will. Hopefully they start with bigger targets like Google and Apple.
The Fediverse has a unique advantage here, being so spread out means that there’s no one server that’s really worth going after.
And if someone forced to take E2EE off of one specific server, then everyone there could just up and move to a new servers. At max I t would be a day of downtime.
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@erebion @bonfire @swf @sovtechfund
Agreed. End to end encryption is nothing new. That’s why we’re using the MLS protocol that’s supported by tons of other messaging systems.
I think the “new” part will be building it alongside ActivityPub, so your existing network of contacts can talk to you in either plaintext or encrypted.
I’m not sure where in the world you are, but in my corner of it, it seems good to set up more ways for regular people to commmunicate reliably and safely.
@benpate @bonfire @swf @sovtechfund
More ways aren't bad. But those ways should have turns and roundabouts and small footpaths and bridges and maps.
What good is a way that only connects a couple places, but isn't accessible from the rest of the world?
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@bonfire @swf @sovtechfund @benpate It doesn't matter whether people use landline or a mobile phone or even a satellite phone. They can call me.
But somehow everyone agrees it's just the way it is, you cannot contact someone that uses a different instant messenger.
Where the hell did this take the wrong turn?
We were promised the internet would let us all communicate with each other, anytime. Freely. A large network, decentralised. And suddenly we have many islands instead. :(
Yeah, you’re not wrong about that. Back in the day, I loved the Trilliam IM client because I could sign in to every IM network from one window.
I’m hoping ActivityPub can become that landline+mobile+sat phone combo on the Internet.
UX will be key, here. Let us cook for a bit, and get some screenshots out to all of you. I’d love to hear your feedback once I have something to show for it.
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@benpate @bonfire @swf @sovtechfund
More ways aren't bad. But those ways should have turns and roundabouts and small footpaths and bridges and maps.
What good is a way that only connects a couple places, but isn't accessible from the rest of the world?
@benpate @bonfire @swf @sovtechfund I'll read up on what ActivityPub does, but MLS seems like a pretty good start and makes me fear it somewhat less. :-)
Still, we need well thought out interoperability in our FOSS communities. We're more and stronger together.
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Yeah, you’re not wrong about that. Back in the day, I loved the Trilliam IM client because I could sign in to every IM network from one window.
I’m hoping ActivityPub can become that landline+mobile+sat phone combo on the Internet.
UX will be key, here. Let us cook for a bit, and get some screenshots out to all of you. I’d love to hear your feedback once I have something to show for it.
@benpate @bonfire @swf @sovtechfund
Things I wonder:
- Where will the keys be stored?
- Where will the code come from?I hope none of those will be answered with "browser".
Also, signing in to all messengers in one tool is nice, but what we need is to be able to communicate directly.
It's nice if I can talk to Johne Doe on IRC and Jane Doe on AOL, but what if I want to have a group chat? Yeah. :/
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@alisynthesis The initial idea is that all fediverse apps (clients and servers) should implement the standard for maximum interoperability. But it's definitely worth thinking about what we could do to make that possible in any case!
@bonfire @alisynthesis Mastodon team will be like: we will add that after at least 20 year
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@benpate @bonfire @swf @sovtechfund
More ways aren't bad. But those ways should have turns and roundabouts and small footpaths and bridges and maps.
What good is a way that only connects a couple places, but isn't accessible from the rest of the world?
Yes. 💯
That’s why “app builders” like Bonfire and Emissary are so interesting for this space.
We enable the “long tail” of technology adoption, and make it possible for tiny communities to launch highly customized Fediverse apps with very low effort. Small paths, many branches.
AtlasMaps.org (for instance) took me about six weeks start to finish. Other community-specific servers will launch even easier.
😎
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@benpate @bonfire @swf @sovtechfund I'll read up on what ActivityPub does, but MLS seems like a pretty good start and makes me fear it somewhat less. :-)
Still, we need well thought out interoperability in our FOSS communities. We're more and stronger together.
Jump on the GitHub issues. We’d love to talk.
https://github.com/swicg/activitypub-e2ee
And, I’m happy to walk you through how I’m trying to approach it. We have a tight timeline, but more eyes is still better at this point.
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@benpate @bonfire @swf @sovtechfund
Things I wonder:
- Where will the keys be stored?
- Where will the code come from?I hope none of those will be answered with "browser".
Also, signing in to all messengers in one tool is nice, but what we need is to be able to communicate directly.
It's nice if I can talk to Johne Doe on IRC and Jane Doe on AOL, but what if I want to have a group chat? Yeah. :/
Keys will be encrypted on the browser, locked with a separate password that’s not shared with the server.
There are some other synchronization issues we’re going to work out, but not before our first sets of code are due.
There’s more here than I can cover in 500char toots. But I’d be happy to chat some time to hear your thoughts
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RE: https://socialwebfoundation.org/2025/12/19/implementing-encrypted-messaging-over-activitypub/
Big news for the #Fediverse! End-to-end encryption is coming to #ActivityPub.
@swf with support from @sovtechfund is coordinating two interoperable implementations.
Bonfire is proud to be one of these first two projects, alongside #Emissary by @benpate
We think #E2EE should simply be the default for any private communications, and we’re especially thrilled to bring private, trusted collaboration to the fediverse.
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Keys will be encrypted on the browser, locked with a separate password that’s not shared with the server.
There are some other synchronization issues we’re going to work out, but not before our first sets of code are due.
There’s more here than I can cover in 500char toots. But I’d be happy to chat some time to hear your thoughts
@benpate @bonfire @swf @sovtechfund Another thought before I'll catch up on sleep:
If the code that handles the key material comes from the webserver, that does not stop a government that's hostile from ordering the website owner to run malicious code that'll also encrypt messages for their people... That's what I worry mainly about in terms of security.
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I am woefully ignorant here. Spare a link for this poor lad?
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@benpate @bonfire @swf @sovtechfund Another thought before I'll catch up on sleep:
If the code that handles the key material comes from the webserver, that does not stop a government that's hostile from ordering the website owner to run malicious code that'll also encrypt messages for their people... That's what I worry mainly about in terms of security.
Yes. There has to be trust somewhere along the path.
You could host your own server, but you’d still have to trust the developers to not install a back door. Or a supply chain hack. Or…
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@benpate @bonfire @swf @sovtechfund Another thought before I'll catch up on sleep:
If the code that handles the key material comes from the webserver, that does not stop a government that's hostile from ordering the website owner to run malicious code that'll also encrypt messages for their people... That's what I worry mainly about in terms of security.
One goal is to make this an interoperable standard, so that you could make your own client app, then use your ActivityPub server as only a dumb pipe.
I think that would instill trust.
More in the AM.
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@bonfire @swf @sovtechfund @benpate Ooof, just another instant messenger..?
We've already had XMPP since the 90s... and since then it's become pretty reliable.
i hope there'll at least be interoperability. I'm so tired of new ways to communicate that are not interoperable with what's already there.
@erebion @bonfire @swf @sovtechfund @benpate @evanprodromou
There is room for more instant messagers:
https://mov.im/blog/debacle/76bf90a4-5f59-4962-92db-6cd859f42ec9
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Yes. There has to be trust somewhere along the path.
You could host your own server, but you’d still have to trust the developers to not install a back door. Or a supply chain hack. Or…
@benpate @bonfire @swf @sovtechfund The weak point will be wherever you host the webserver. If a court or corrupt official orders them to install something bad, perhaps a backdoor, that is an issue.
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@benpate @bonfire @swf @sovtechfund The weak point will be wherever you host the webserver. If a court or corrupt official orders them to install something bad, perhaps a backdoor, that is an issue.
Yes, agreed. I know I said this before, but can't find it:
One important goal is to make a solid, consistent client-side API - something like what C2S was intended to be. That would enable interchangeable clients for mobile/desktop/etc that work with any server.. and greatly increase the trust factor.
I'm only good at making web apps, so that's what Emissary's first client will be. But there will be space for others to build on top of this work.
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@erebion @bonfire @swf @sovtechfund @benpate @evanprodromou
There is room for more instant messagers:
https://mov.im/blog/debacle/76bf90a4-5f59-4962-92db-6cd859f42ec9
I feel like this is the right time to mention https://xkcd.com/927/
You're very right here. There are tons of IM services. "Why introduce another one?" is a reasonable question
But I don't see it in those terms because we're not creating a new network. This is adding features to network we already have
I'll still use Signal. And Apple Messages
And I'd also like to talk privately with people here, as well. There is room for both.
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RE: https://socialwebfoundation.org/2025/12/19/implementing-encrypted-messaging-over-activitypub/
Big news for the #Fediverse! End-to-end encryption is coming to #ActivityPub.
@swf with support from @sovtechfund is coordinating two interoperable implementations.
Bonfire is proud to be one of these first two projects, alongside #Emissary by @benpate
We think #E2EE should simply be the default for any private communications, and we’re especially thrilled to bring private, trusted collaboration to the fediverse.
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Our initial clients will be built in JavaScript, so you’d need to enable JS on your browser to use it (for now)
And, it will require special features on your server, so this won’t work on Mastodon (for now)
Download the road, things will change. We’re defining a standard API that anyone can build in. So hopefully someone can built installable clients (iOS, Android, desktop) that work separate from your browser.
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undefined filobus@sociale.network shared this topic on
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@fabio this is getting annoying, every time you save your site you are sending a new version of all your likes so this thread gets bumped to the top of my feed
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@macgirvin that's interesting, I hadn't thought of using punycode. Like @edent@mastodon.social my exposure to it was strictly limited to domains (and even then only to counter domain spoofing)
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@edent@mastodon.social -- It's also used for the username component of email addresses iirc; as these are originally also specified as 7-bit US-ASCII. So I convert local usernames with idn. Just something I did out of habit really. You can use UTF-8 if you want, so I'm only saying that punycode seems to federate better based on my experience. We tested this with a bunch of fediverse software at the time and it just worked. We'll accept either.
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@macgirvin
I thought Punycode was only for domain names. Are you saying you also use it for the user part?
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@edent@mastodon.social -- I've just tested and that account also works fine with Hubzilla. I will mention that your implementation in this case uses url-encoded usernames while ours uses punycode. They should be able to interact just fine, but the fact that there are multiple ways to arrive at a solution could cause a bit of confusion for implementers.
You'll need to use punycode if you wish to federate with the diaspora protocol or email or any other projects or protocols which restrict the character set for usernames. So it might end up being a more flexible solution in the long run and should work fine with every other fediverse project today. ASCII-restricted software will just use the xn-- name; and all their links and buttons should work fine.
Url-encoding should also work, but perhaps not so universally and easily as punycode; as witnessed by the number of issues documented in this thread.
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@jandi
Yes, that would really help. I will set the priority in the Weblate project for the part used to understand tags inside messages. Thank you for your continuous support on projects :)
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@edent@mastodon.social -- Just looked again... this was first introduced as a hidden feature in redmatrix around 2013-2014, and so may also be available currently in Hubzilla (behind the "system.unicode_usernames" feature toggle). There were some major changes in 2019 that to my knowledge weren't ever backported. I think these only applied to local usernames and not remote usernames, but the functionality in hubzilla still might need to be verified.
