@glyph Did you quote post something?
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@vaurora @glyph I don’t agree. Addiction with chemical dependence and heritable contributing factors feels palpably different to chatbots — to me. But also I don’t know of any evidence beyond anecdotes either way, so I think y’all’s opinion is just as valid as mine, and don’t much see a need to convince anyone. Maybe I’m wrong, wouldn’t be the first time :)
@jacob @vaurora @glyph the less loaded analogy is people’s continued overuse of social media, which I suspect stems from the same intermittent reward hook, and also causes ~all the bad things attributed to LLMs—suicide, awful social decision-making, degradation of ability to interact normally with IRL humans/family, etc.
This is not to defend either social media or LLM usage! But it’s probably more useful than analogies to things that cause physical withdrawal dependencies and direct death.
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@vaurora @glyph @jacob I've mentioned this elsewhere, but one of the reasons I am personally very unhappy about the potential of soon being forced to use LLMs to work is that I am reasonably confident that I have a high risk of just that. I have OCD *and* I am a former addict. This is the reason I've strictly avoided gambling of any kind; I have just the kind of brain that would very easily get me trapped in the deep end.
I think slop machines are exactly as risky to that kind of mind as slot machines, as it were.
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@jacob @vaurora @glyph the less loaded analogy is people’s continued overuse of social media, which I suspect stems from the same intermittent reward hook, and also causes ~all the bad things attributed to LLMs—suicide, awful social decision-making, degradation of ability to interact normally with IRL humans/family, etc.
This is not to defend either social media or LLM usage! But it’s probably more useful than analogies to things that cause physical withdrawal dependencies and direct death.
@luis_in_brief @jacob @vaurora I should, perhaps, have used clearer language to couch the top post's behavioral observation as a personal one and not a clinical one. I've definitely known people I could describe colloquially as "social media addicts", including maybe myself. But I've never *personally* observed the "I'm fine, I know it's bad for others but I'm fine, I don't need to change anything, it's helping actually" rhetoric from any social media user that I see *regularly* from LLM users.
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@luis_in_brief @jacob @vaurora I should, perhaps, have used clearer language to couch the top post's behavioral observation as a personal one and not a clinical one. I've definitely known people I could describe colloquially as "social media addicts", including maybe myself. But I've never *personally* observed the "I'm fine, I know it's bad for others but I'm fine, I don't need to change anything, it's helping actually" rhetoric from any social media user that I see *regularly* from LLM users.
@luis_in_brief @jacob @vaurora also not for nothing but the vast harms of social media were mostly documented after the introduction of algorithmic timelines and those use ML which shares a bunch of optimization-loop characteristics with LLMs. maybe let's just make it all illegal in the meanwhile while we figure it out /s
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@jacob @vaurora @glyph the less loaded analogy is people’s continued overuse of social media, which I suspect stems from the same intermittent reward hook, and also causes ~all the bad things attributed to LLMs—suicide, awful social decision-making, degradation of ability to interact normally with IRL humans/family, etc.
This is not to defend either social media or LLM usage! But it’s probably more useful than analogies to things that cause physical withdrawal dependencies and direct death.
@luis_in_brief @jacob @glyph let's be clear, chat bots are causing death quite directly. I've read the interviews with the people who came out the other side of an AI psychosis and it's like they were hypnotized. It's not "oh, they were going to die one way or another." People with AI romantic partners were in many cases "propositioned" by the AI out of the blue. The chatbot can and does initiate new behavior and intensify it.
(Speaking as someone who was suicidal for multiple years.)
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@luis_in_brief @jacob @glyph let's be clear, chat bots are causing death quite directly. I've read the interviews with the people who came out the other side of an AI psychosis and it's like they were hypnotized. It's not "oh, they were going to die one way or another." People with AI romantic partners were in many cases "propositioned" by the AI out of the blue. The chatbot can and does initiate new behavior and intensify it.
(Speaking as someone who was suicidal for multiple years.)
@vaurora @jacob @glyph yes, and so is social media, as well as all sorts of other deadly mental health issues like anorexia, SWATing, and vaccine denial. (Meta briefly had a task force about anorexia before they realized any plausible solution would basically push teen girls off the platform, and then everyone involved signed very big NDAs and was fired.) Again, this is not to let LLMs off the hook, but they're much closer to social media than hard drugs.
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@glyph I learned about Kratom from a podcast about a year ago. I can't remember which one, but having looked into the science, the addiction curve on that stuff is indeed frightening.
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@luis_in_brief @jacob @vaurora also not for nothing but the vast harms of social media were mostly documented after the introduction of algorithmic timelines and those use ML which shares a bunch of optimization-loop characteristics with LLMs. maybe let's just make it all illegal in the meanwhile while we figure it out /s
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@luis_in_brief @jacob @vaurora the sarcasm was more about the unrealistic scale of the effort (particularly in the current political environment) than the earnestness of the project. At the *very least* there ought to be transparency requirements and user control. Alas.
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@vaurora @jacob @glyph yes, and so is social media, as well as all sorts of other deadly mental health issues like anorexia, SWATing, and vaccine denial. (Meta briefly had a task force about anorexia before they realized any plausible solution would basically push teen girls off the platform, and then everyone involved signed very big NDAs and was fired.) Again, this is not to let LLMs off the hook, but they're much closer to social media than hard drugs.
@luis_in_brief @vaurora @jacob I think different metaphors make sense in different contexts. For what I was trying to communicate, it just doesn't line up. In general I think "problem gambling" is the best overall metaphor, given that it can be a solitary activity. But then, although I don't know anyone with that type of hyper-maladaptive relationship with social media, I also don't know anyone who participated in the rohingya genocide, so, my experience is limited.
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@arclight @datarama @xgranade are you talking about the “home” button on a game controller launching it? this has never tripped me up for some reason but Apple has a similar thing in macOS which they shipped with no way to disable for like 3 years (thankfully there’s a toggle now) so I get the frustration
@glyph @datarama @xgranade It occasionally happens when turning off the controller due to the lack of a dedicated power button. A long press will turn the controller on/off, a short press when no game is active will activate Steam Big Picture mode. You cannot turn off the controller without risking Big Picture mode short of just pulling the controller's batteries. All I want is Steam or Windows to ignore short press on the controller.
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For some people, including me, a horoscope an 8 ball or ELIZA program can help cut through analysis paralysis, the same way a flip of a coin can work. But it shouldn't be the only thing, and it shouldn't be adhered to no matter what because people and circumstances change rapidly.
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@glyph You got me curious enough to do some reading (for which, thanks). Will not try it.
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@glyph the branch predictor in my brain gave me a good half second of thinking that said "...why my iPad spontaneously combusted..." 😂
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@glyph What's the "no one has logged in so I'm gonna reboot" timeout these days?
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@glyph the branch predictor in my brain gave me a good half second of thinking that said "...why my iPad spontaneously combusted..." 😂
@diazona if somebody is pegasusing me to do some state-sponsored terrorism please just tell the sniper to take the shot, I'm tired. the paperwork will be much more annoying for everybody if my house burns down
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@glyph What's the "no one has logged in so I'm gonna reboot" timeout these days?
@tychotithonus I…don't think that's a thing?
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@tychotithonus I…don't think that's a thing?
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@mijenix @tychotithonus TIL! Thanks! This iPad does indeed remain idle for long periods of time, so it's plausible.
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@glyph :) its AAALIIIVE!!! :)
Gli ultimi otto messaggi ricevuti dalla Federazione
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Thanks to everyone who responds or replies to my polls. They're one of my favourite parts of being on the Fediverse.
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@zwol at this point I'd forego semantic, and just take easy and nice to look at. If I were writing a book today, I'd author it in Markdown, and then convert it to...whatever...for editing, or whatever at the very end. Before publishing, I ended up converting to an OpenOffice doc with the publishers template for editing, anyway (but I didn't originally write it to be published, it just worked out that way, so the OpenOffice step wasn't originally in the plans).
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@ann3nova this is such a specific thing to obsess over, I love it. I drew my own pointers back then, and the one I used most looked pretty much like this. Same shape, but different colors.
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@swelljoe I completely agree that it becomes tiring looking at all the tags. Not sure I've ever seen a markup language that was both semantic and pleasant to read in source form, though.
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Le matematiche (libro)
@libri - La matematica è la stessa, ma la scuola russa la vede in modo diverso
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@zwol I wrote a book in Docbook (SGML first, and then converted to XML later) about 25ish years ago, with a custom vim configuration. It wasn't pleasant. Yes, the tools were bad, but also it's just really sort of tiring looking at all the tags and the processing toolchain was dire.
I was using a LaTeX-based toolchain for the PDF generation, I don't remember details, but Sebastian Rahtz was super helpful when I ran into mysterious issues.
I wouldn't do it again. Different time, different me.
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@jannem Yeah, like, considered as a thing-in-itself apart from the tools, the major complaint I have about DocBook is that the documentation of _how to write a book using DocBook_ is inadequate.
Many people have very similar complaints about LaTeX.
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@Esoteria you might be a little too young for this classic scene from "WKRP in Cincinnati".
