Is it OK to reverse engineer the recipes for restaurant dishes so you can make them at home?
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@evan I voted "yes, but" on the grounds that reverse engineering how the dishes are so good may cause you to learn things you did not want to know about their preparation, like (allegedly) just how much butter goes into any number of them. Ignorance can be bliss, or lead to blissful continued consumption of restaurant dishes.
But maybe you wanted to know anyway. Reverse engineer away.
@cks this is a really good point!
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@virtuous_sloth @evan abd yet everyone accepts it as normal for other areas!! It never makes sense to me
@lizzard @virtuous_sloth do you have any family recipes?
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@gabboman @evan If you try to start a restaurant with food you don't "understand" I'm fine with it. Your restaurant probably won't last long.
And sorry, let's not bring the "cultural appropriation" thing with food. It's already a very dubious concept in the first place, but every single cuisine is the result of mixing of cultures and other cuisines ingredients.
@DavidBHimself @gabboman maybe it's a less dubious concept if you're not from an colonialist culture.
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@DavidBHimself is it possible that sharing to experience and sharing to replicate are two different kinds of sharing? And if so, that some cultures or individuals might offer one but not the other?
And could relative power dynamics come into play? If it's a relationship between French customers and refugee restauranteurs from a former colony, for example? Or between Israeli customers and Palestinian cooks?
What about consent? What if you asked for the recipe, and the restauranteur refused?
@evan Sorry, but North Americans, you really have a weird relationship with food.
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@evan Sorry, but North Americans, you really have a weird relationship with food.
@DavidBHimself we do! I know that as part of a refugee and diaspora community, food is an extremely important part of retaining culture.
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@evan I did yes but because I have no idea what you mean by "reverse engineer". If you are going to the restaurant several times to order said dish and figure it out based on taste, sure go ahead. But if you're doing more complicated things like tracking down previous employees and asking them, well that's another matter. Typically at home you're not trying to replicate restaurant dishes exactly, you're just trying to get close but easier/healthier. Less butter, salt etc than restaurants use. I imagine chefs try to replicate restaurant meals all the time, but then improve them or make them their own.
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@lizzard @lmorchard so, just wondering: why is everyone so hung up on copyright? The question doesn't ask about copyright at all.
@evan I think the reason everyone is so hung up on copyright is that most (all?) ethical systems have no objection to copying. So for most people, the reason copying might be unethical is if it would involve breaking the law.
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Wow, what a poll! Thanks to everyone who responded or replied. I thought about this topic as I was reverse engineering the blueberry pancakes from a cafe in Halifax that I really liked. My answer is yes, but. I'll give my reasoning.
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Wow, what a poll! Thanks to everyone who responded or replied. I thought about this topic as I was reverse engineering the blueberry pancakes from a cafe in Halifax that I really liked. My answer is yes, but. I'll give my reasoning.
First and foremost is cultural appropriation. Food culture is an important part of retaining culture in diaspora communities, and different communities have different standards for sharing that culture outside the community. Especially when dishes are part of a cohesive whole, decontextualizing and commodifying those dishes can feel disrespectful and appropriative.
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First and foremost is cultural appropriation. Food culture is an important part of retaining culture in diaspora communities, and different communities have different standards for sharing that culture outside the community. Especially when dishes are part of a cohesive whole, decontextualizing and commodifying those dishes can feel disrespectful and appropriative.
I mentioned in replies that as a member of the Palestinian diaspora, I make our food for friends and colleagues when they come to my house, but I don't normally give out family recipes. Those are for my kids, niblings, and future generations.
I recognise that this is different than running a restaurant. And that not all diaspora cultures hold onto recipes this way. Palestinian food culture has been particularly plundered in a conscious campaign of erasure, so it's a very sensitive one.
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I mentioned in replies that as a member of the Palestinian diaspora, I make our food for friends and colleagues when they come to my house, but I don't normally give out family recipes. Those are for my kids, niblings, and future generations.
I recognise that this is different than running a restaurant. And that not all diaspora cultures hold onto recipes this way. Palestinian food culture has been particularly plundered in a conscious campaign of erasure, so it's a very sensitive one.
A good story about reverse engineering is the Portland food cart where the creators literally spied on Oaxacan women making tortillas to learn their secrets.
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A good story about reverse engineering is the Portland food cart where the creators literally spied on Oaxacan women making tortillas to learn their secrets.
Again, there's a big difference between making food for yourself at home and selling it to others.
But there are ways to appropriate culture even if you're not selling it. I mentioned in replies the practice of publishing recipes in blog posts, either naming the restaurant or just the dish. Even sharing the recipe with friends and family is performative. Making the food for dinner guests can be, too.
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First and foremost is cultural appropriation. Food culture is an important part of retaining culture in diaspora communities, and different communities have different standards for sharing that culture outside the community. Especially when dishes are part of a cohesive whole, decontextualizing and commodifying those dishes can feel disrespectful and appropriative.
@evan I recognize it's a very *VERY* different path through history, but as a descendant of the “community of people who grew up on the east coast and have personally hand-picked probably hundreds of pounds of wild roadside blueberries”, I think those pancakes are fair game. (-;
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Again, there's a big difference between making food for yourself at home and selling it to others.
But there are ways to appropriate culture even if you're not selling it. I mentioned in replies the practice of publishing recipes in blog posts, either naming the restaurant or just the dish. Even sharing the recipe with friends and family is performative. Making the food for dinner guests can be, too.
There are also relative power dynamics at stake. When your country has invaded and colonised another, extracting resources and labour over centuries, there is a particularly vampiric quality to appropriating culture from the people there, too. The fact that formerly colonised people often migrate to the metropole, and that migrants often set up restaurants with their home cuisine, confounds the issue.
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There are also relative power dynamics at stake. When your country has invaded and colonised another, extracting resources and labour over centuries, there is a particularly vampiric quality to appropriating culture from the people there, too. The fact that formerly colonised people often migrate to the metropole, and that migrants often set up restaurants with their home cuisine, confounds the issue.
Whether it's Indonesian food in Amsterdam, Southeast Asian food in Paris or Central American food in the USA, the pattern of colonial cultures extracting now intangible resources from invaded and colonised peoples continues.
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Whether it's Indonesian food in Amsterdam, Southeast Asian food in Paris or Central American food in the USA, the pattern of colonial cultures extracting now intangible resources from invaded and colonised peoples continues.
So, culture aside, there are some other aspects to consider. One is simple economics; if you make the dish at home, you are somewhat or even very much less likely to go buy it at the restaurant. Someone has either invented or adapted a very nice dish that you liked, and you're cutting them off from the benefit of your own business. Especially if it's a small or independent restaurant if we want practitioners of the craft and art of cooking to keep doing it, it's good to support them financially.
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So, culture aside, there are some other aspects to consider. One is simple economics; if you make the dish at home, you are somewhat or even very much less likely to go buy it at the restaurant. Someone has either invented or adapted a very nice dish that you liked, and you're cutting them off from the benefit of your own business. Especially if it's a small or independent restaurant if we want practitioners of the craft and art of cooking to keep doing it, it's good to support them financially.
Another aspect is personal experience. Eating beignets and chicory coffee at Cafe du Monde is a holistic experience. Smoked meat at Schwartz's. A Taqueria Cancun burrito. Letting the food be as special and rare as your visits to those restaurants can enhance the whole experience. Extracting the food from the context makes both less precious.
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Another aspect is personal experience. Eating beignets and chicory coffee at Cafe du Monde is a holistic experience. Smoked meat at Schwartz's. A Taqueria Cancun burrito. Letting the food be as special and rare as your visits to those restaurants can enhance the whole experience. Extracting the food from the context makes both less precious.
There are a couple of cross-cutting issues here. One is distance. If you can't travel to New Mexico often, and you really crave a green chile cheeseburger, maybe making it at home can be a way to stay connected.
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There are a couple of cross-cutting issues here. One is distance. If you can't travel to New Mexico often, and you really crave a green chile cheeseburger, maybe making it at home can be a way to stay connected.
Another is consent. A lot of people talked about asking for recipes from a restaurant, which is a really nice practice. But the question isn't about that; it's about figuring out the recipe yourself. I think there are two main cases for doing that reverse engineering: when you never asked for the recipe, and when you asked and the restaurant said no. In that second case, there is a lot of question around consent, again when there are relative power dynamics at stake.
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Another is consent. A lot of people talked about asking for recipes from a restaurant, which is a really nice practice. But the question isn't about that; it's about figuring out the recipe yourself. I think there are two main cases for doing that reverse engineering: when you never asked for the recipe, and when you asked and the restaurant said no. In that second case, there is a lot of question around consent, again when there are relative power dynamics at stake.
Finally, from my side, there's the question of craft. Whether it's painting or pottery or code, one way that we learn technique is by copying others. Learning how to replicate flavours, textures and looks in food is part of the craft. It's gaining the skill in understanding of processes and ingredients to have particular outcomes.
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@lizzard I do think it's a good question too. Here was my answer.
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@sean I figured as well!
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Anyway, thanks to everyone who replied and answered.
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In the case of my blueberry pancakes, I had a few aspects to my consideration. The place I went to is small -- Annie's in Halifax. But it's far away from me and I don't visit Halifax that often. I also make pancakes every Saturday; it's part of my personal cooking practice.
