Is it OK to reverse engineer the recipes for restaurant dishes so you can make them at home?
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Another aspect is personal experience. Eating beignets and chicory coffee at Cafe du Monde is a holistic experience. Smoked meat at Schwartz's. A Taqueria Cancun burrito. Letting the food be as special and rare as your visits to those restaurants can enhance the whole experience. Extracting the food from the context makes both less precious.
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@Perrin42 it is!
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@evan I think the reason everyone is so hung up on copyright is that most (all?) ethical systems have no objection to copying. So for most people, the reason copying might be unethical is if it would involve breaking the law.
@mpjgregoire @lizzard @lmorchard "most (all?) ethical systems have no objection to copying"?!? That's not true at all!
Copying another artist's style, someone else's jokes, a friend's hairstyle, a classmate's essay, are all considered in poor taste or even unethical.
In almost any situation where original thinking could be done, copying is considered shoddy and second-rate.
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@evan Considering Schwartz's isn't even real smoked meat anymore (they use an electric smoker) you're getting downright Baudrillardian in this.
@ianrogers did Baudrillard also like Schwartz's?
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@mpjgregoire @lizzard @lmorchard "most (all?) ethical systems have no objection to copying"?!? That's not true at all!
Copying another artist's style, someone else's jokes, a friend's hairstyle, a classmate's essay, are all considered in poor taste or even unethical.
In almost any situation where original thinking could be done, copying is considered shoddy and second-rate.
@evan my gut reaction: the cooking example is completely different from the examples you just gave.
All your examples have one thing in common: trying to reap the benefits without putting in the effort. The restaurant situation is only comparable if the copycat is also a restaurant cook.
But if you're cooking a restaurant recipe at home, no harm is done to the professional cook, and no "unfair" advantage is gained for the home cook.
And then, knowing the recipe doesn't spare you all the effort: Even if you know the theoretical recipe, a lot of effort will still go into the learning and doing. I have the whole recipe library of a confectioner - but none of the skills, and not her professional kitchen, so I still can't do most of the things in that collection.
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@evan my gut reaction: the cooking example is completely different from the examples you just gave.
All your examples have one thing in common: trying to reap the benefits without putting in the effort. The restaurant situation is only comparable if the copycat is also a restaurant cook.
But if you're cooking a restaurant recipe at home, no harm is done to the professional cook, and no "unfair" advantage is gained for the home cook.
And then, knowing the recipe doesn't spare you all the effort: Even if you know the theoretical recipe, a lot of effort will still go into the learning and doing. I have the whole recipe library of a confectioner - but none of the skills, and not her professional kitchen, so I still can't do most of the things in that collection.
"the cooking example is completely different from the examples you just gave."
Agreed. The examples I gave were for @mpjgregoire 's assertion that nobody ever has any problem with copying except for copyright. I strongly disagree.
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There are a couple of cross-cutting issues here. One is distance. If you can't travel to New Mexico often, and you really crave a green chile cheeseburger, maybe making it at home can be a way to stay connected.
OK, this made me hungry for green chile cheeseburgers.
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Whether it's Indonesian food in Amsterdam, Southeast Asian food in Paris or Central American food in the USA, the pattern of colonial cultures extracting now intangible resources from invaded and colonised peoples continues.
@evan I'm really not sure how I feel about this - where do you draw a line between colonial extraction, cultural appropriation, and a post-colonial diaspora? Is an Indonesian rijstafel a colonial extraction, or is it part of an Indonesian post-colonial diaspora?
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OK, this made me hungry for green chile cheeseburgers.
@evan Hard to top the experience of eating at Schwartz's, the experience is far beyond the taste of the smoked meat, its the chutzpah of the servers. Don't think I could replicate either.
And just mentioning green chile cheeseburger sends me back to memories of eating maybe the best one ever from Dave's Not Here in Santa Fe in maybe 1991 (no longer there) https://www.nmgastronome.com/?p=930
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@evan I'm really not sure how I feel about this - where do you draw a line between colonial extraction, cultural appropriation, and a post-colonial diaspora? Is an Indonesian rijstafel a colonial extraction, or is it part of an Indonesian post-colonial diaspora?
@dneary I don't draw such a line! It's a very fluid range with many gradations. Rijsttafel is a great example; it uses Indonesian ingredients and techniques and presentation style, but it's not actually an Indonesian product. Instead, its origin is in Dutch colonial cooking and later was refined in the metropole. The fact that Indonesian migrants run rijsttafel restaurants in the Netherlands is also a complication.
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@dneary I don't draw such a line! It's a very fluid range with many gradations. Rijsttafel is a great example; it uses Indonesian ingredients and techniques and presentation style, but it's not actually an Indonesian product. Instead, its origin is in Dutch colonial cooking and later was refined in the metropole. The fact that Indonesian migrants run rijsttafel restaurants in the Netherlands is also a complication.
@dneary I don't pretend to be an expert in cultural appropriation, by the way. There's just a lot to unpack that we don't always do.
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"the cooking example is completely different from the examples you just gave."
Agreed. The examples I gave were for @mpjgregoire 's assertion that nobody ever has any problem with copying except for copyright. I strongly disagree.
@evan @lizzard @lmorchard
I meant to give a thoughtful reply — including opening a tab to https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P8B.HTM — but at this point I'll just say that maybe you're right and I was wrong.
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Caso di studio sulla comunicazione politica. Ci sono video in cui il non detto fino a ieri pesa più di quanto detto oggi, poi ci sono video che all'apparenza sembrano chiacchiere inutili ma in sostanza ti fanno prendere pernacchie da destra e da sinistra, e infine ci sono video che gettano il marchio dell'ipocrisia sula persona che li mette in circolazione, sul partito in cui milita e le istituzioni che serve. E poi c''è Pina, che li riunisce tutti in un solo messaggio.
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@mora @quinta sarò ingenuo, ma io non credo che sia così. L'Europa è stata voluta altrimenti non si sarebbe fatta. Finora è convenuto più o meno a tutti, anche a chi fa guerra ibrida all'Europa (per poi in realtà mandare oligarchi a investirci dentro). Mettendo da parte l'Italia e le dovute fluttuazioni nel corso dei decenni, il tenore di vita medio in Europa è migliorato.
Nell'ipotesi peggiore, ovvero che l'Europa è solo un bancomat, beh, pur sempre meglio di niente. Chissa dove saremmo senza.
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