So the good thing about Linux distros switching to Wayland long before Wayland is remotely ready is that contact with real-world users will make the "pain points" visible so they can be fixed.

[mcc@mastodon.social]

So the good thing about Linux distros switching to Wayland long before Wayland is remotely ready is that contact with real-world users will make the "pain points" visible so they can be fixed. But the bad thing is. I do not actually believe the "pain points" will be fixed. Ever

[not2b@sfba.social]

@mcc X windows had so many pain points that were never fixed, so ...

[saddestrobots@jorts.horse]

@mcc
one time gnome just stopped respecting the concept of having more than one XScreen (the second digit in "DISPLAY=:0.0"), and i wrote red hat to ask them about it (i worked for a company that had a support contract, at the time), and they wrote back "we forgot what that did so we just nuked it entirely, nobody who runs linux uses a random collection of heterogeneous displays anymore, right?"

i feel like i've seen this interaction play out many times in my life now

[gsuberland@chaos.social]

@mcc I am a strong believer that this happens because peak Linux culture is where you gaslight yourself into believing it's all holy and perfect and then never report all the broken shit

[sashin@veganism.social]

@mcc what are some of the pain points?

[fluffy@plush.city]

@not2b @mcc They weren't really fixable, either, like at a protocol level, and all of the extensions and workarounds that modern X software was using ended up fully degrading the X11 experience to the extent that there wasn't even any advantage to trying to work with it anymore.

But there were also 10 major versions of X that came before X11, and X itself was a successor to W, so one would hope that X would have learned its lessons by then, too.

[aeva@mastodon.gamedev.place]

@mcc one thing i noticed while trying to find a solution to my most recent injury is there's been bugs open for it for *years*

[aeva@mastodon.gamedev.place]

@gsuberland @mcc they get reported, they just get fixed at a glacial pace, if they gets fixed at all.

[gsuberland@chaos.social]

@aeva @mcc I'm not even sure that this is true at scale

[aeva@mastodon.gamedev.place]

@sashin @mcc search my username and the string "wayland" and you will find plenty

[aeva@mastodon.gamedev.place]

@sashin @mcc and also a lot of swearing

[gsuberland@chaos.social]

@aeva @mcc so for example KiCAD used to have a metric shitload of bugs and annoyances and crashes, it was genuinely not good. and then a few of the devs decided to get together and run these community feedback things where they asked "what's the most annoying bug?" and such by email campaigns. and then devs took that feedback and turned them into bug tickets and fixed them. the bandwidth was always there, just people were putting up with the problems and never getting around to reporting them.

[aeva@mastodon.gamedev.place]

@gsuberland @mcc the majority of my grievances with wayland have had bugs open for years and people pleading for them to be fixed

[gsuberland@chaos.social]

@aeva @mcc yeah I mean there are probably a bunch of things in Wayland that are missing and problematic for sure, based on my outsider view of it, my point is that there's also this endemic problem that leads to apathy across the board

[aeva@mastodon.gamedev.place]

@gsuberland @mcc and "actually the Philosophers created a protocol for this (which nothing implements), therefore this is not a problem" is a very common reply by wayland apologists when people complain about wayland problems

[gsuberland@chaos.social]

@aeva @mcc on this side of it have no opinion because I don't use Linux at all (just FreeBSD and Windows in my world)

[aeva@mastodon.gamedev.place]

@gsuberland @mcc maybe there's apathy but it's not for a lack of awareness on the part of the maintainers

[aeva@mastodon.gamedev.place]

@gsuberland if you don't have an opinion don't express one

[not2b@sfba.social]

@fluffy @mcc Yes, X evolved into a hopeless buggy and insecure piece of crap that no number of extensions could fix and Wayland was the way forward. But it is common to find that the second system that is supposed to solve everything has its own issues.

[mcc@mastodon.social]

@not2b @fluffy however wayland development is also largely driven by extensions