Would you like to see full default interoperability between #ATproto and #ActivityPub without a bridge?
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@julian @wjmaggos I don't know if there is a good book about how SMTP won, by the way. It would be a great read. In hindsight, it seems inevitable, but in the late 1980s and early 1990s it was far from a sure thing. There were dozens of commercial network email protocols already in use, and a few interoperation standards, like X.400.
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@blaine @evan @wjmaggos on a tangent to this, it took me 10 minutes each to get a working instances of OSSN & Piwogo up on my website hosted on Bluehost servers, using Softaculous scripts, simply because they can be installed in directories on existing domains. Meanwhile, I have failed to date in self hosting Fediverse instances, limited by needing to register yet another domain name (which I've done anyway), and not figuring out secure port forwarding for a home Yunohost server.
@TotalSonic @blaine @wjmaggos you're right; that is a tangent.
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@chris @blaine @wjmaggos it's funny that you say "without bridges" and "however that may happen" in the same breath. If we don't care how it happens, why rule out one particularly powerful technique for interoperability?
BridgyFed works GREAT. It's fucking amazing. Is there room for improvement? Absolutely. But it's a really good service.
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@chris @blaine @wjmaggos it's funny that you say "without bridges" and "however that may happen" in the same breath. If we don't care how it happens, why rule out one particularly powerful technique for interoperability?
BridgyFed works GREAT. It's fucking amazing. Is there room for improvement? Absolutely. But it's a really good service.
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@wjmaggos @chris @blaine one of my big problems with it too. I think @anewsocial are aware of that limitation and are working on some solutions.
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@evan @julian @wjmaggos what would you consider to be the "application domain" of HTTP, and what needs to be built above it? ironically, i think if you look at the OSI model, then HTTP is already at the uppermost "layer 7", the application layer -- and attempts to build networks on top of HTTP are in effect virtualizing lower layers! so instead of a virtual 3-7 on top of HTTP's 7, why not use HTTP's 7 directly? how many nested virtualized app layers do we need?
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@evan @julian @wjmaggos what would you consider to be the "application domain" of HTTP, and what needs to be built above it? ironically, i think if you look at the OSI model, then HTTP is already at the uppermost "layer 7", the application layer -- and attempts to build networks on top of HTTP are in effect virtualizing lower layers! so instead of a virtual 3-7 on top of HTTP's 7, why not use HTTP's 7 directly? how many nested virtualized app layers do we need?
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@trwnh @julian @wjmaggos I am taking Computer Networks right now, and I asked the very same question. If we have application-layer protocols, what do we call the things like SOAP or ActivityPub that work on top of those protocols. The answer I got was that those are also layer 7. Once you get to layer 7, it's just 7 all the way up. Inverted turtle structure!
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@wjmaggos @chris @blaine one of my big problems with it too. I think @anewsocial are aware of that limitation and are working on some solutions.
@evan @wjmaggos @chris @blaine @anewsocial
Appreciate all the kind words in the thread! That said, I still strongly believe opt-in is a feature, not a bug. The right solution isn't to force people onto networks they don't want to be a part of; it's to clean up the rough edges of unbridged interactions and content so it makes less of a difference.
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@evan @wjmaggos @chris @blaine @anewsocial
Appreciate all the kind words in the thread! That said, I still strongly believe opt-in is a feature, not a bug. The right solution isn't to force people onto networks they don't want to be a part of; it's to clean up the rough edges of unbridged interactions and content so it makes less of a difference.
@evan @wjmaggos @chris @blaine @anewsocial
I understand the instinct of "make these work together", but there are technical and cultural differences that make it more than just two standards talking to each other. A couple of simple examples are "I don't want to be in a public, auditable firehose" or "I had a bad experience there, I don't trust them with my safety."
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@evan @wjmaggos @chris @blaine @anewsocial
I understand the instinct of "make these work together", but there are technical and cultural differences that make it more than just two standards talking to each other. A couple of simple examples are "I don't want to be in a public, auditable firehose" or "I had a bad experience there, I don't trust them with my safety."
@quillmatiq @evan @chris @blaine @anewsocial
I understand if you don't want to have the conversation but these are public systems like blogging with your email address available, we just don't think of them like that. it's old school twitter, not even your network of friends and family on facebook. not having algos/ads doesn't mean everything isn't boostable to the world by default. maybe people want to use something designed to be inherently private, but that's not fedi etc. IMHO
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@quillmatiq @evan @chris @blaine @anewsocial
I understand if you don't want to have the conversation but these are public systems like blogging with your email address available, we just don't think of them like that. it's old school twitter, not even your network of friends and family on facebook. not having algos/ads doesn't mean everything isn't boostable to the world by default. maybe people want to use something designed to be inherently private, but that's not fedi etc. IMHO
@wjmaggos @evan @chris @blaine @anewsocial
I agree with you there! But often it's not about *how* public things are, it's more about *where* they're public. In other words, many users I've spoken to who are either not bridged or are straight-up anti-bridge have chosen that route because they don't (yet) trust the entities on the other side to have that much ownership over their data. There's also a cohort who don't want to have to depend on *us* to bridge them either.
It's a lot more complex!
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@wjmaggos @evan @chris @blaine @anewsocial
I agree with you there! But often it's not about *how* public things are, it's more about *where* they're public. In other words, many users I've spoken to who are either not bridged or are straight-up anti-bridge have chosen that route because they don't (yet) trust the entities on the other side to have that much ownership over their data. There's also a cohort who don't want to have to depend on *us* to bridge them either.
It's a lot more complex!
@quillmatiq @evan @chris @blaine @anewsocial
they're public on the internet! screenshots?
I think the complexity is mostly about having so few people here and thinking it will stay that way. that being here is safety through obscurity. that a fedi server is a community instead of much more a portal to a possibly universal social media network. they built and maintained this place (huge kudos!) to get away, but actually made the best network not to.
they need a fork that's default opt in.
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@quillmatiq @evan @chris @blaine @anewsocial
they're public on the internet! screenshots?
I think the complexity is mostly about having so few people here and thinking it will stay that way. that being here is safety through obscurity. that a fedi server is a community instead of much more a portal to a possibly universal social media network. they built and maintained this place (huge kudos!) to get away, but actually made the best network not to.
they need a fork that's default opt in.
@wjmaggos @evan @chris @blaine @anewsocial
Huge difference between screenshotting vs always being a part of another network and another organization's infrastructure by default.
To be clear, I don't agree with Fediverse platforms depending on a blocklists, I much prefer approve-lists, but I don't think that's a popular opinion either.
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@sirber83@fosstodon.org @julian@activitypub.space Thanks! You might not have been able to find it because you were searching for “JavaScript” instead of “TypeScript.” What do you mean by “standalone” by the way? Fedify is typically used in together with with other web frameworks like Express or Next.js.
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La piattaforma @mirlo, è una piattaforma molto simile a bandcamp che sta crescendo dal basso. Ha ottenuto 40000 euro per sviluppare la sua decentralizzazione.
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Mirlo platform, a platform very similar to Bandcamp which is growing from the bottom up. It has obtained €40,000 to develop its decentralization.
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@julian mmm c'set une marque de commerce, je vais devoir trouver un autre nom!
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@julian it will take time, as I do this part time, and there's a lot to do! having this lib will suerly help!
I made a repo here:
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sirber83@fosstodon.org following along. Excited to see how it shapes up!
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@julian I plan to do a photo app, like flickr but federated. I'm not very fond of pixelfed, which is half broken.
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sirber83@fosstodon.org yes it's an entire framework, which may or may not be what you're looking for.
If you're looking for more low level helpers for http signing and such, the NodeBB libs could be more of use.
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@julian @hongminhee wow nice! Looks pretty complete! My web search didn't find it. Seems to work standalone?
