https://www.forth.org/Ting/Forth-for-the-Complete-Idiot/Forth-for-the-Complete-Idiot.pdf#forth
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@mcc @lritter Have you ever come across this episode of Computer Chronicles? I think it still is true today X)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-31sZfPMzwQ -
@mcc @lritter Have you ever come across this episode of Computer Chronicles? I think it still is true today X)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-31sZfPMzwQ -
@AlgoCompSynth @mcc @lritter I have both, but I meant to share this segment when the guest says none of the standard programming languages are appropriate for the end user, not even BASIC.
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@mcc @lritter Have you ever come across this episode of Computer Chronicles? I think it still is true today X)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-31sZfPMzwQ -
@lritter @mcc I can't wait to see what you come up with! The best contender I've ever come across is still this(fractran): https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/pocket_rewriting.html
I'm always on the lookout for even more distilled and approachable interfaces for computing.
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@lritter @mcc I can't wait to see what you come up with! The best contender I've ever come across is still this(fractran): https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/pocket_rewriting.html
I'm always on the lookout for even more distilled and approachable interfaces for computing.
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@AlgoCompSynth @mcc @lritter I have both, but I meant to share this segment when the guest says none of the standard programming languages are appropriate for the end user, not even BASIC.
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@AlgoCompSynth @neauoire @mcc except with creative tools, sooner or later fixed function is not enough. word, excel, blender, they're all user-programmable.
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undefined oblomov@sociale.network shared this topic
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@oblomov @neauoire @lritter The thing is that programming is ultimately not about syntax but about framing what it is you want in an unambiguous way. The reason why slopcoding will always fail is that not only are you framing what you want ambiguously, the machine is incapable of interpreting it unambiguously. But the thing the slopcoders *want* is to be freed from the mental labor of deciding what it is they want. They want to make ambiguous requests and have it do the right thing anyway.
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@oblomov @neauoire @mcc just looked at some inform 7 code and it's a neat DSL. very consequently avoids special characters and, like SQL, goes by speech patterns people already know.
the question is if this suffices for problems that are better expressed in some kind of gentle mathematical notation.
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@oblomov @neauoire @lritter The thing is that programming is ultimately not about syntax but about framing what it is you want in an unambiguous way. The reason why slopcoding will always fail is that not only are you framing what you want ambiguously, the machine is incapable of interpreting it unambiguously. But the thing the slopcoders *want* is to be freed from the mental labor of deciding what it is they want. They want to make ambiguous requests and have it do the right thing anyway.
@mcc @oblomov @neauoire @lritter it's been possible to rigorously say what you want and have the computer find a program that does that for a long time. that's called program synthesis. you can even use a language model to make the optimizer that does this more efficient. no one seems to want that, they want to literally put a feature request written by a user at one end and get a program out the other
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@mcc @oblomov @neauoire @lritter it's been possible to rigorously say what you want and have the computer find a program that does that for a long time. that's called program synthesis. you can even use a language model to make the optimizer that does this more efficient. no one seems to want that, they want to literally put a feature request written by a user at one end and get a program out the other
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@oblomov @neauoire @lritter The thing is that programming is ultimately not about syntax but about framing what it is you want in an unambiguous way. The reason why slopcoding will always fail is that not only are you framing what you want ambiguously, the machine is incapable of interpreting it unambiguously. But the thing the slopcoders *want* is to be freed from the mental labor of deciding what it is they want. They want to make ambiguous requests and have it do the right thing anyway.
@mcc @neauoire @lritter Oh absolutely, I don't expect NPL to actually do anything for slopcoders. But I have a feeling, with some of the people I've been working with recently, that not having to learn a new syntax would be of non trivial help to them to help resolve any ambiguities, because the issue isn't so much with the reasoning as it is with translating it into the syntax. It is something I still have to actually test, though.
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@mcc @neauoire @lritter Oh absolutely, I don't expect NPL to actually do anything for slopcoders. But I have a feeling, with some of the people I've been working with recently, that not having to learn a new syntax would be of non trivial help to them to help resolve any ambiguities, because the issue isn't so much with the reasoning as it is with translating it into the syntax. It is something I still have to actually test, though.
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@oblomov @neauoire @mcc just looked at some inform 7 code and it's a neat DSL. very consequently avoids special characters and, like SQL, goes by speech patterns people already know.
the question is if this suffices for problems that are better expressed in some kind of gentle mathematical notation.
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@mcc @oblomov @neauoire @lritter this was true to a lesser extent for executives a decade ago with "big data". you don't have to take a position if the computer gives it to you. the most dysfunctional companies have the biggest analytics teams, because analytics is what you do when you can't build consensus.
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@boris
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