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  4. 🔐 Every unencrypted email is readable by 10+ entities and stored forever.

🔐 Every unencrypted email is readable by 10+ entities and stored forever.

Pianificato Fissato Bloccato Spostato Senza categoria
webkeydirectorywkdemailencryptionprivacyinfoseccryptographyopenpgp
38 Post 10 Autori 0 Visualizzazioni
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  • Daniel Fisher(lennybacon)undefined Daniel Fisher(lennybacon)

    @nicfab I appreciate every attempt to make the web more secure by default.

    What is your opinion on if I would state: Isn’t encrypted mail also stored forever and readable in the future? As e-mail lacks PFS…

    I’m more concerned about that and things like headers being not encrypted and therefore, leaking meta data, than getting my keys to ppl.

    If things must change it is probably SMTP that needs a successor with things like double ratchet session keys and key exchange parameters. And while we’re on it, probably some post quantum ability would fit the timeline we are in.

    What do you think?

    Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
    Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
    Nicola Fabiano
    scritto ultima modifica di
    #21

    @lennybacon 3/6
    And metadata exacerbates the issue: even with PGP/S/MIME, headers expose communication patterns, timestamps, and relationships that can be more revealing than the message content itself. WKD is pragmatic incrementalism: it solves the decades-old “chicken and egg” of key distribution, but it’s still polishing brass on the Titanic. Real progress requires a protocol redesign.

    1 Risposta Ultima Risposta
    • Daniel Fisher(lennybacon)undefined Daniel Fisher(lennybacon)

      @nicfab I appreciate every attempt to make the web more secure by default.

      What is your opinion on if I would state: Isn’t encrypted mail also stored forever and readable in the future? As e-mail lacks PFS…

      I’m more concerned about that and things like headers being not encrypted and therefore, leaking meta data, than getting my keys to ppl.

      If things must change it is probably SMTP that needs a successor with things like double ratchet session keys and key exchange parameters. And while we’re on it, probably some post quantum ability would fit the timeline we are in.

      What do you think?

      Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
      Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
      Nicola Fabiano
      scritto ultima modifica di
      #22

      @lennybacon 4/6
      Possible directions include:
      • MLS (Messaging Layer Security) for federated asynchronous messaging with PFS
      • Post-quantum key exchange (already in TLS 1.3 trials)
      • Encrypted headers and padding to mitigate traffic analysis
      • Ephemeral identities to reduce long-term correlation

      1 Risposta Ultima Risposta
      • Daniel Fisher(lennybacon)undefined Daniel Fisher(lennybacon)

        @nicfab I appreciate every attempt to make the web more secure by default.

        What is your opinion on if I would state: Isn’t encrypted mail also stored forever and readable in the future? As e-mail lacks PFS…

        I’m more concerned about that and things like headers being not encrypted and therefore, leaking meta data, than getting my keys to ppl.

        If things must change it is probably SMTP that needs a successor with things like double ratchet session keys and key exchange parameters. And while we’re on it, probably some post quantum ability would fit the timeline we are in.

        What do you think?

        Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
        Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
        Nicola Fabiano
        scritto ultima modifica di
        #23

        @lennybacon 5/6
        The hard part is backward compatibility: email’s universality is both its strength and its prison. Perhaps the way forward is dual: incremental improvements (e.g., WKD, Autocrypt) to make current email “secure enough,” while simultaneously building truly secure alternatives that could eventually replace SMTP.

        1 Risposta Ultima Risposta
        • Daniel Fisher(lennybacon)undefined Daniel Fisher(lennybacon)

          @nicfab I appreciate every attempt to make the web more secure by default.

          What is your opinion on if I would state: Isn’t encrypted mail also stored forever and readable in the future? As e-mail lacks PFS…

          I’m more concerned about that and things like headers being not encrypted and therefore, leaking meta data, than getting my keys to ppl.

          If things must change it is probably SMTP that needs a successor with things like double ratchet session keys and key exchange parameters. And while we’re on it, probably some post quantum ability would fit the timeline we are in.

          What do you think?

          Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
          Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
          Nicola Fabiano
          scritto ultima modifica di
          #24

          @lennybacon 6/6
          So the real question is: migration by evolution or by revolution?

          1 Risposta Ultima Risposta
          • tudobemundefined tudobem

            @nicfab @PierricD what would the average annual server cost be if one were to set up a server simply for WKD? I‘m not a tech guy unfortunately, so I find it difficult to assess

            Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
            Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
            Nicola Fabiano
            scritto ultima modifica di
            #25

            @tudobem @PierricD It depends on the provider you chose. You can check Netcup or Contabo, which are more affordable options.

            tudobemundefined 1 Risposta Ultima Risposta
            • Jeff Mossundefined Jeff Moss

              @nicfab @yawnbox An article about email security, but no mention of S/MIME?

              Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
              Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
              Nicola Fabiano
              scritto ultima modifica di
              #26

              @thedarktangent @yawnbox This article is not about email security but about WKD. I have already written about email security and will likely revisit the topic in the near future.

              Jeff Mossundefined 1 Risposta Ultima Risposta
              • Delta Chatundefined Delta Chat

                @nicfab @Blort we know there is an IETF doc about wkd. Delta is probably one of the most standards based messengers out there https://github.com/chatmail/core/blob/main/standards.md
                But that doesn't mean any IETF standard is unconditionally a good idea for resilient decentralized messaging.

                Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                Nicola Fabiano
                scritto ultima modifica di
                #27

                @delta @Blort 1/3 - Absolutely right — IETF standards aren't automatically the best fit for every use case. DeltaChat is actually a great example of this nuanced approach: it leverages email infrastructure creatively while adding features like Autocrypt and ChatMail servers to address some of email's inherent limitations.

                1 Risposta Ultima Risposta
                • Delta Chatundefined Delta Chat

                  @nicfab @Blort we know there is an IETF doc about wkd. Delta is probably one of the most standards based messengers out there https://github.com/chatmail/core/blob/main/standards.md
                  But that doesn't mean any IETF standard is unconditionally a good idea for resilient decentralized messaging.

                  Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                  Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                  Nicola Fabiano
                  scritto ultima modifica di
                  #28

                  @delta @Blort 2/3 - WKD solves one specific problem (key discovery), making traditional email encryption more accessible. However, as you point out, true resilience requires more: forward secrecy, metadata protection, and decentralization without single points of failure.

                  1 Risposta Ultima Risposta
                  • Delta Chatundefined Delta Chat

                    @nicfab @Blort we know there is an IETF doc about wkd. Delta is probably one of the most standards based messengers out there https://github.com/chatmail/core/blob/main/standards.md
                    But that doesn't mean any IETF standard is unconditionally a good idea for resilient decentralized messaging.

                    Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                    Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                    Nicola Fabiano
                    scritto ultima modifica di
                    #29

                    @delta @Blort 3/3 - That's why I see WKD and projects like DeltaChat as complementary rather than competing — WKD improves the email baseline. At the same time, Delta pushes the boundaries of what email-based messaging can achieve. Different tools for different threat models and use cases.

                    1 Risposta Ultima Risposta
                    • Nicola Fabianoundefined Nicola Fabiano

                      @thedarktangent @yawnbox This article is not about email security but about WKD. I have already written about email security and will likely revisit the topic in the near future.

                      Jeff Mossundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                      Jeff Mossundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                      Jeff Moss
                      scritto ultima modifica di
                      #30

                      @nicfab @yawnbox I have lived through essentially the same issues with PGP keys in DNS, hashes of SMime keys in DNS, MTA-STS, DANE for SMTP, automatic SMIME using SMILE, etc.

                      I hope WKD does better! But I fear that without a solution to local email search it will be a victim of its own success, or you will have to put so much information in the subject line to remind you what is in the encrypted body that some privacy is lost.

                      Nicola Fabianoundefined 1 Risposta Ultima Risposta
                      • Nicola Fabianoundefined Nicola Fabiano

                        @tudobem @PierricD It depends on the provider you chose. You can check Netcup or Contabo, which are more affordable options.

                        tudobemundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                        tudobemundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                        tudobem
                        scritto ultima modifica di
                        #31

                        @nicfab @PierricD thank you! would it be okay if I get back to you with questions in case they come up along the way?

                        Nicola Fabianoundefined 1 Risposta Ultima Risposta
                        • Jeff Mossundefined Jeff Moss

                          @nicfab @yawnbox I have lived through essentially the same issues with PGP keys in DNS, hashes of SMime keys in DNS, MTA-STS, DANE for SMTP, automatic SMIME using SMILE, etc.

                          I hope WKD does better! But I fear that without a solution to local email search it will be a victim of its own success, or you will have to put so much information in the subject line to remind you what is in the encrypted body that some privacy is lost.

                          Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                          Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                          Nicola Fabiano
                          scritto ultima modifica di
                          #32

                          @thedarktangent @yawnbox I share your concern — past attempts (PGP in DNS, DANE, SMILE, etc.) struggled with adoption. WKD isn’t a complete solution, but it’s worth setting up: it removes a key barrier and makes encrypted mail more usable, even if challenges like local search and subject-line leaks remain.

                          1 Risposta Ultima Risposta
                          • tudobemundefined tudobem

                            @nicfab @PierricD thank you! would it be okay if I get back to you with questions in case they come up along the way?

                            Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                            Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                            Nicola Fabiano
                            scritto ultima modifica di
                            #33

                            @tudobem @PierricD Of course, feel free to reach out anytime.

                            1 Risposta Ultima Risposta
                            • Nicola Fabianoundefined Nicola Fabiano

                              🔐 Every unencrypted email is readable by 10+ entities and stored forever.

                              Web Key Directory (WKD) changes this: automatic encryption using your domain name. No manual keys. No central servers. Just cryptographic certainty.

                              WKD makes encrypted email as simple as HTTPS made web browsing secure.

                              https://www.nicfab.eu/en/posts/wkd2/

                              #WebKeyDirectory #WKD #EmailEncryption #Privacy #InfoSec #Cryptography #OpenPGP

                              Grant_Hundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                              Grant_Hundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                              Grant_H
                              scritto ultima modifica di
                              #34

                              @nicfab
                              Reading the article, I can't see how this works out in a hybrid situation - where not all your email recipients are using WKD. Am I missing something?
                              You mention the strength of email being its own prison - we need something that would encrypt where possible, and fall back to plaintext where not (with warning). HTTPS was not implemented across the board overnight.

                              Nicola Fabianoundefined 2 Risposte Ultima Risposta
                              • Grant_Hundefined Grant_H

                                @nicfab
                                Reading the article, I can't see how this works out in a hybrid situation - where not all your email recipients are using WKD. Am I missing something?
                                You mention the strength of email being its own prison - we need something that would encrypt where possible, and fall back to plaintext where not (with warning). HTTPS was not implemented across the board overnight.

                                Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                                Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                                Nicola Fabiano
                                scritto ultima modifica di
                                #35

                                @grant_h 1/2 You're right — WKD alone doesn't handle the hybrid scenario. It's just key discovery, not the complete solution.
                                For opportunistic encryption, you need WKD plus smart clients: Thunderbird, DeltaChat, and others already do this — they check for keys via WKD/Autocrypt, encrypt when possible, and fall back to plaintext with warnings.

                                1 Risposta Ultima Risposta
                                • Grant_Hundefined Grant_H

                                  @nicfab
                                  Reading the article, I can't see how this works out in a hybrid situation - where not all your email recipients are using WKD. Am I missing something?
                                  You mention the strength of email being its own prison - we need something that would encrypt where possible, and fall back to plaintext where not (with warning). HTTPS was not implemented across the board overnight.

                                  Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                                  Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                                  Nicola Fabiano
                                  scritto ultima modifica di
                                  #36

                                  @grant_h 2/2 - Think of it like HTTPS adoption:

                                  - WKD = certificate infrastructure (like Let's Encrypt)
                                  - Autocrypt/client logic = protocol negotiation
                                  - Warnings = mixed content alerts

                                  So yes, the ecosystem supports "encrypt when possible" — WKD makes finding keys automatic. The clients handle the graceful degradation you're looking for.

                                  Grant_Hundefined 1 Risposta Ultima Risposta
                                  • Nicola Fabianoundefined Nicola Fabiano

                                    @grant_h 2/2 - Think of it like HTTPS adoption:

                                    - WKD = certificate infrastructure (like Let's Encrypt)
                                    - Autocrypt/client logic = protocol negotiation
                                    - Warnings = mixed content alerts

                                    So yes, the ecosystem supports "encrypt when possible" — WKD makes finding keys automatic. The clients handle the graceful degradation you're looking for.

                                    Grant_Hundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                                    Grant_Hundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                                    Grant_H
                                    scritto ultima modifica di
                                    #37

                                    @nicfab My use case is a school. Teachers and students. Particularly the counselling staff. It has to be easy and seamless, and resetable by our admins.
                                    Unfortunately, the big companies have no incentive to make our email private, and every incentive to make it easy to join. The precise opposite of so many FOSS projects. We will persevere!

                                    Nicola Fabianoundefined 1 Risposta Ultima Risposta
                                    • Grant_Hundefined Grant_H

                                      @nicfab My use case is a school. Teachers and students. Particularly the counselling staff. It has to be easy and seamless, and resetable by our admins.
                                      Unfortunately, the big companies have no incentive to make our email private, and every incentive to make it easy to join. The precise opposite of so many FOSS projects. We will persevere!

                                      Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                                      Nicola Fabianoundefined Questo utente è esterno a questo forum
                                      Nicola Fabiano
                                      scritto ultima modifica di
                                      #38

                                      @grant_h Go ahead!

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